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Posted By: renosteinke Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/04/06 11:59 PM
Today I saw a man electrocuted; fortunately, a timely response led to a happy ending.

The electrician was about three steps up a ladder, wedged in between assorted pipes and ducts, working on a circuit.
The box contained multiple circuits, and, as these were 'critical' circuits in a maximum security prison, it was not feasable to shut them all down. This was a 208/120 system.
It appeared that he may have grabbed a loose neutral wire; that is not certain. What is certain is that he suddenly became errect, as if he were 'standing at atention.'

When "are you OK" got no response, another sparky kicked the ladder out from under him. No difference; he was supported by the piping.
The sparky then wrapped his arms around the thighs of the victim, and tugged. The victim had a well-controlled drop to ground, where he collapsed to his knees, and "jacknifed" over.
It was clear that the victim had no pulse, and was not breathing. The other sparky then grabed the man's collar, and pulled him up, over, and on to his back. At this point, the victim revived.
Time for the entire drama? Probably less than a minute.

Another fifteen minutes rest were required, before the victim was able to stand. He was examined by local medical personnel, then driven to the hospital for a follow-up exam.

The hospital exams- mainly EKG and blood tests- revealed that the man had, indeed, suffered a very severe shock. This stunned the attending medics, as he appeared quite healthy at the time!
He is being kept overnight for observation, and is expected to be working again Thursday.

Where do I fit into this story? Tonight I get to go to the airport, and pick up his 10 yr old grandson....who is coming to visit.
Posted By: iwire Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/05/06 12:29 AM
I am glad he will be seeing his grandson again.

That said he should have refused to do the work.

IF the circuit truly could not be turned off, than PPE must be employed.

Anything else is just an excuse that would sound pretty weak to his grandson.

Bob
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 04:54 AM
Bob, I agree.
Gloves could have prevented this from happening.
However, anyone that has read my rants on Occupational Safety here would know that I am all for cover-up gear.
Sure I might be a Line-Mechanic, but I've never been involved in an Electric Shock incident in the time that I have been in the Trade.
Cover-up gear uses Neoprene sheets as a barrier to live parts, clipped with plastic clips.
Next time I do one of these jobs I'll submit some pics.
Sure it looks like a bomb could go off, with the amount of barriers, but that is standard practice here.
You only have the parts being worked upon exposed.
A few of you lower voltage folks could learn a lot from us high voltage workers.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 04-06-2006).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 08:32 AM
Please don't think that I mean't that you Electricians are idiots or anything.
I'm an Electrician myself but, I look at Safety before workability.
It's a work-around that gets a job done in our field.
Posted By: NJwirenut Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 12:26 PM
Glad that the guy is going to be OK. [Linked Image]

But the fact that he lived means that you fortunately DID NOT witness an "electrocution". By definition, an electrocution is a FATAL event...



[This message has been edited by NJwirenut (edited 04-06-2006).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 01:36 PM
Quote
By definition, an electrocution is a FATAL event...

Yep.....

electrcute 19th century origin derived from electro-execute, following New York's adoption of the electric chair in 1890.

According to one etymology, the use of the word to refer to an accidental electrocution is first recorded around 1909.

But glad he's O.K., anyway. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 01:39 PM
Kenny,
I agree.
Electrocution means a fatal electric shock, where the brain dies along with other essential organs.
Personally I blame a lot of this sort of talk on the media, after sensationised headlines, as in "Man Electrocuted by Electric fence".
Death is Death.
No coming back from that.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 02:24 PM
I thought carefully before I called this an "electrocution." I stand by my choice of words.

The victim had stopped breathing. He had no pulse. He was completely unconscious. Only upon revival did his vital signs resume. Had there been a less promt response....

Since then, we have learned that one of the 'points of contact' was his left temple; an electrical burn has surfaced there. It is safe to say his system was completely shut down as a result of the current flowing through his brain.

He may not have seen heaven, but he was shaking hands with St. Peter!
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/06/06 05:03 PM
Electrocution from Electro-execution, from the introduction of the Electric Chair, [ thanks for that NJW, BTW ].

If not fatal, then it's just an electric-shock?

Any more names for a non-fatal shock- how about electropardon?

Aside:
My son informs me a penitentary just sacked an electrician who refused to work on an electric chair.

Claimed it was a death-trap.

[Sorry!]

Alan
Posted By: Elviscat Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/07/06 01:45 AM
When someone's heart has stopped beating, and they've stopped breathing they're brain shuts down and they're clinically dead, so the use of the word "Electrocution" is proper
Posted By: drillman Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/07/06 10:08 PM
Intresting statement about since its a prison the power cannot be turned off. I am the electrician for a prison. I work for the maintenance dept, but I am the only licensed electrician.

I have shut the power off more times than I can count to various parts of the prison in order to fix things. When I first started I made the mistake of asking the post officer if it was ok, of course it was never ok. Now I go to the building supervisor and tell them I need to perform a shutdown and whats a good time for you. I have had zero problems since I took that approach.

They usually tell me to do it during rack up time when the inmates are already locked in the cells.

I made it clear when I was interviewed that I am the "expert" and if I decide the power needs to be shut down then thats the way it is going to be. They hired me so they must have agreed.

The keys are: do not ask them, tell them, be flexible with the schedule, and be creative in order to reduce downtime.

I had to kill complete power to a control room to fix a UPS that did not have a bypass, this was a few hours of work. Instead of leaving them in the dark for a few hours I made a cheater cord and rigged up some temp power. The total downtime was one minute to transfer to temp and one minute to transfer back to the UPS after it was repaired.

Once last example, I had to shut the power off to the wardens office. He did not care, thats because he had a laptop that ran off the battery.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 04/27/06 09:12 AM
Drillman,
Send me an e-mail.
I am to a degree right behind drillman.
Having done a large amount of prison work here, I'm peeved at the prison staff that seem to love control of anyone in a situation like this.
Why bother?.
Idiots. [Linked Image]
Posted By: briselec Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 05/06/06 06:15 AM
What sort of ladder was he using and did the guy who grabbed him by the thighs have a reason for knowing he wouldn't also receive an electric shock?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 05/06/06 07:31 PM
The ladder was a fiberglass ladder... keep in mind that the victim was also in contact with numerous pipes and ducting.

Grabbing the victim probably wasn't the wisest thing to do- but hindsight is always 20-20, and all was well in the end!

A fancy name for "safety' is "risk management." There simply are no perfect answers that fit all situations. Rather, we must weigh the risks, and take our chances.

And- lest we forget- in a case of complete cardiac / respiratory shut down, time is of the essence, and even the seconds required to raise the alarm might make a difference.
Posted By: briselec Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 05/06/06 11:32 PM
well I hope these guys have had a serious look at their risk management.
At one place I worked we lost a father and son because the father tried to physically remove his son from a faulty welder. It always concerns me when I hear about someone else making the same mistake.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 06/18/06 07:16 PM
The most recent issue of EC&M documents a similar case, where a man was injured by "only 120."

The list of long-term effects is impressive; most of them were experienced by the victim of the accident described. Incredable exhaustion being only one.

We have also had some more recent statistics come out regarding accidents in our trade. A surprising number of the electrocutions involved changing ballasts in 277 volt fixtures.

We tend to equate danger with either big wires or high voltages. Yet, as these two cases illustrate, the 'little stuff' can kill too!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 06/19/06 01:29 AM
The navy calls 120v the deadly shipmate.
More sailors get kiiled with regular consumer gadgets plugged into the wall than all the other electrical equipment combined ... or so the legend goes.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 06/19/06 08:01 AM
John,
I agree mate,
There seems to be an attitude of only the larger voltages and the larger wires can harm or kill you.
To a degree yes, HV can kill you, but mainly most of the HV stuff is in areas not accessible to un-authorised persons.
In all the time that I have been involved with EHV and HV stuff, it has been the 230V stuff that has given me a decent bloody shock.
No Gloves, would be the answer for that.
You are a lot more aware working with higher voltages and a lot more careful.
Hot-sticks, rather than direct contact (even wearing gloves) is the rule, not the exception.
Posted By: Kenbo Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 06/23/06 10:20 AM
Drillman
I also am an electrician in a UK Prison and on several occasions have to kill the power to the entire establishment. I have never had hassel from management.
But warders are the worlds worst just becouse it interupts their normal routine. I just remind them what they said to me at work when they phone me up and say "my washing-machine keeps tripping the breaker. Can you come and look at it for me?"

What goes around comes around
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 06/26/06 04:11 PM
Renosteinke raises some good points. I once heard a very interesting presentation about electric shocks by a neuropharamacologist, who held that 120V was statistically the most dangerous voltage because of the frequency of inadvertent contact with a live circuit—either by “trained” or “untrained” persons. [277V contact is more serious, but has less frequent occurrence.]

The presenter explained that a very common aftereffect is <i>delayed muscle atrophy.<i> As I recall, healthy nerve tissue normally regenerates itself, but electric shock halts that regeneration process. This leads to the inability to fully use the limb on the order of six months to years after the initial injury.
Posted By: tajoch Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 10/08/06 05:22 AM
Alexander graham bell invented the electric chair using AC to prove how dangerous it was and how much safer DC was (per him)
Posted By: Eddy Current Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 10/08/06 11:20 AM
Quote"Now I go to the building supervisor and tell them I need to perform a shutdown and whats a good time for you. I have had zero problems since I took that approach.

I'm going to use this approach from now on, thanks Drillman.
Was the electrician told it had to be done live? Or did he just feel comfortable doing it live? Personally in the past I've done the same thing, Turning off power is a hastle, I'll be done and on my way to the next job in half hour.
We had an accident in my town recently where a guy was told the power could not be turned off but after he got shocked it was off in minutes!
If it has been off before it can be off again!
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 10/08/06 12:01 PM
tajoch,
Quote
Alexander graham bell invented the electric chair using AC to prove how dangerous it was and how much safer DC was (per him).

You sure about that?.
My understanding of the argument was between Edison and Westinghouse,as per AC and DC and which was safer.
Bell invented the telegraph system.
Or was that Samuel Morse?.
Good lord am I confused.
Alexander Graham Bell worked with Westinghouse on a method of electrocuting someone over the phone. There was no market demand since telemarketers hadn't come along yet. Samuel Morse was an unsuccessful boxer of the period. He hit really hard but tended to telegraph his punches.

Rumor has it that Westinghouse & Fuller Brush came up with an electrofied welcome mat / used encyclopedia business.

I would like to see the Agastat division of Tyco enter into a deal with the former House Majority Whip to market Tom Delay Relays. Doubt it will happen.
Joe
Posted By: mxslick Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 10/08/06 07:27 PM
Quote
Alexander Graham Bell worked with Westinghouse on a method of electrocuting someone over the phone. There was no market demand since telemarketers hadn't come along yet. Samuel Morse was an unsuccessful boxer of the period. He hit really hard but tended to telegraph his punches.

Rumor has it that Westinghouse & Fuller Brush came up with an electrofied welcome mat / used encyclopedia business.

I would like to see the Agastat division of Tyco enter into a deal with the former House Majority Whip to market Tom Delay Relays. Doubt it will happen.
Joe

One word: *Groan* [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 10/09/06 09:41 AM
Quote
Alexander Graham Bell worked with Westinghouse on a method of electrocuting someone over the phone. There was no market demand since telemarketers hadn't come along yet.

[Linked Image]

Quote
My understanding of the argument was between Edison and Westinghouse,as per AC and DC and which was safer.

Yep, and some accounts indicate that Edison was so convinced of the extra danger of AC over DC that he issued a challange in the form of an electrical "chicken" game. One man would be subjected to shocks of increasing voltage of DC while the other would receive shocks of similar voltage but AC, until one cried enough. Rather wisely, the challenge was refused. [Linked Image]

Having been instrumental in getting the state of New York to adopt the electric chair (using AC) it appears that Edison tried to get the term "Westinghoused" adopted in a further attempt to ingrain the idea in people that the Westinghouse AC system was dangerous.

Whatever his other achievements, it seems as though Edison was very blinkered on the AC vs. DC issue. How much that was caused by his heavy financial stake in DC power systems we can only surmise.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-09-2006).]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 10/09/06 02:04 PM
I do not believe that the relative "safety" of one system over another had much effect on which system was eventually adopted.

Rather, I believe the issue was entirely decided by our ability to transform AC. Imagine how meager our transmission network would be, if the wires had to be 4 ft. diameter, and a tower placed every 100 ft.!
Yet, that is what we would have to deal with if it were not for our ability to raise the voltage, transmit the power, then lower the voltage to reasonable levels. You can't do this with DC.
Posted By: circuit man Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 11/07/06 11:07 PM
actually nikola tesla was resposible for the A.C. system. he worked for edison who threw him out for even coming up with the idea.him & george westinghouse invented the now modern 3 phase motor also.he also invented the transformer as we know it. as a matter of a fact niagra falls gave him free power from the station to power his experiments until he burnt them out.
Posted By: WFO Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 12/23/06 02:40 PM
I think a lot of you may be missing a point here.

Quote
The sparky then wrapped his arms around the thighs of the victim, and tugged.

The first rule of rescue is to not become the second victim. As admirable as this guys actions were, it might have ended up with two fatalities.
As an employee of a POCO, I've seen cases where rescuers were almost killed trying to get someone out of a car that had hit a power line. In one case, it sent both of them to the hospital.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 12/23/06 06:12 PM
WFO, you are absolutely correct. I won't try to explain, justify, or judge the actions of anyone there that day. Indeed, I knew this detail would raise some questions.

In my post, I tried to relate events as accurately as possible, and limited myself to the information available at the time.

The sparky himself did have the same concerns. He made a deliberate choice to take the chance. He tried to justify his chance-taking by claiming time was critical, the lack of other parties nearby, his electric-rated boots, etc ... but, in the end, I think he took the chance because HE REALLY WAS NOT CERTAIN WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

The victim went rigid, and was not responsive. The sparky's main thought, as he kicked out the ladder, was "gee, I'll look pretty foolish if all is well!"

Then, as the victim continued to hang from the pipes, his thought had to be "hey- that's not what was supposed to happen! What do I do now?"

There really wasn't any clear thinking until the victim was down, and clearly not breathing, etc. Then it became a 'simple' matter of reviving him.

I suppose that's the one element of emergency response that is hardest to deal with; not being sure of what is happening.
Posted By: georgestolz Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 12/24/06 01:45 AM
That's a pretty wild event, good to hear everybody made it. It's the close calls that make priorities snap clear.

<IMG SRC=\"http://media.wi...e/79/07879826/0787982679.jpg\">

On the non-issue, I'm reading this book about the AC/DC battle back in the day. I'm about halfway through it, but it's a interesting read, so far. In my searching for a book cover, I saw nothing but good reviews, so I don't think I'm in for disappointment. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 02/10/07 12:52 AM
John,
Quote
WFO, you are absolutely correct. I won't try to explain, justify, or judge the actions of anyone there that day. Indeed, I knew this detail would raise some questions.
The day when we start to question HOW and WHY things happen like they do at an accident site, is the day we go down the toilet.
You do the best that you can in the given situation.
I have to whole-heartedly agree with WFO, that is the first rule of being any sort of an emergency responder.
Second rule is don't ever put the safety or lives of your co-worker(s) or the patient(s) in jeopardy by any of your actions.
It sounds to me that this was an effective rescue.
May they continue to happen, where needed!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: barf Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 03/09/07 06:16 AM
Is there an OSHA report available detailing the reasons why a 24 year old person was electrocuted in Massachusetts a few months ago?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/04/11 07:29 PM
Just a 'bump' to bring this topic to the front of the que ... it's relevant to a little dispute here at work, and I want it readily available to my co-workers.
Posted By: sparky Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/05/11 12:17 AM
it's an everyday event Reno

but i agree with many of you

there should be more of a focus on safety, not just from us in the field, but from safety related doctrines like 70E

this 'excuse' , this grey area that allows anyone to claim 'it just can't be shut off' should be roundfiled

as i get older, discression seems the better part of bolder, i'm shutting more and more off, and that should be MY call, not someone in batterymarch park, or some management beancounter

there should be more isolation required too, for ex. i advocate simple stuff like meter/mains because the homeowners and main. men always got thier mug in my service upgrades

i've also been the responder that's hightailied it to the scene of many an accident with wires down, and have had to sit and watch people die

so yeah, on one hand it's easy to say (like i am) that safety is a key issue that should be in the forefront of everyone's mind in our (or any) trade

but it's awful hard to do in that heat of the moment, and you live with the "woulda coulda shoulda's" afterwards

that said, bravo for the man who pulled down his mate, he can be my apprentice anyday

~S~
Posted By: mikesh Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/10/11 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Elviscat
When someone's heart has stopped beating, and they've stopped breathing they're brain shuts down and they're clinically dead, so the use of the word "Electrocution" is proper

We can argue semantics a long time but he ain't clinically dead until they slide him in the drawer. He is clinically almost dead. Dead is too far to return clinically or by bus.
Really bad shock almost resulting in death.
Posted By: sparky Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/11/11 12:43 AM
well i don't know how it works elsewhere, but here in the northeast the body supposedly has to cool off to a certain temperature, and a medical examiner has to declare 'death'

ems, btw, has never been given the holy water, technically a person can be in two pieces , and they aren't legally deceased on our watch

this can kind s*ck too, for instance someone finds a friend/relative down, and starts cpr, we're bound by law to continue, even if rigor and lividity is obvious

obviously, we're all litigant challenged sorts, or we'd have this issue figured out, eh?

~S~
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/11/11 02:29 PM
Yea, that's just what I need- I need some management wonderkind to look at those comments and say "see! Your whole point that 120 can kill is disproven because the guy wasn't really dead - so go ahead and work hot because I said so! Besides, electricians are supposed to work hot"

That's the exact situation I'm dealing with ... a supervisor with the customer wants the electrical contractor to add a receptacle to an existing circuit "hot," simply because its' too much of a bother to trace out the circuit or find the right panel. After all, it's 'only' 120.

I rather thought the image of a corpse swinging from the rafters might get the supervisors' attention.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/11/11 08:17 PM
Reno:
The supervisors reason is unacceptable. Tracing & ID of the circuit with any of the circuit tracers available should eliminate any issues with the 'flip the breakers' method.



Posted By: sparky Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/12/11 12:09 AM
Imho, it just shouldn't be his call in the first place


~S~
Posted By: mikesh Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/12/11 01:09 AM
Dear management wunderkind
Please sign below

Working hot at 120 volts is safe because the guy doing the work is an electrician and he has all the special training. Turning off the circuit is too time consuming and inconvenient since I refuse to pay anyone to properly identify the circuiting of the building and maybe a few employees would sit idle costing me even more.

Sign here ___________.

The above mentioned manager will be happy to explain to any authority why and how the electrician died or was injured and takes full responsibility for this decision to work hot.

Think the Wonderkid will sign it?
Posted By: sparky Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/12/11 01:48 PM
ouch, the liability card is thrown out


maybe that's good exercise here, seeing as the workers comp buck stops at big insurance , and they own everything out to about neptune....

so, where does the onus of 'blame' (because somebody has got to be guilty when we go down this road) reside when

a)management has a 'work live' request

b)the electrician has met the stipulants of 70E (or subpart S)


and there is an incident anyways?

~S~
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Today I witnessed an Electrocution - 01/12/11 04:01 PM
I heard that was the reason that the signature requirement was added to 70E. Once you tell the boss that they need to sign their name to something potentially dangerous; it's amazing how they suddenly (almost magically) find a way to turn it off for you.
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