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Posted By: renosteinke What safety rules do you often break? - 07/11/05 04:14 AM
Personally, I wish "safety" was something that began thinking- rather than ending it!

Are there rules that you often break- things like:
- using your toolbox lock on a lock-out;
- buying your own lock-outs;
- working live;
- standing atop a ladder; or, perhaps,
- using a "walkman" while you work?

Is there a place for "hard and fast rules" - or is there almost always a circumstance where the rule needs to be ignored? Have "rules" become a cop-out for lazy, uneducated management? Can following a rule actually create a hazard?

Sound off with your take on this issue!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/11/05 05:47 AM
If I had to pick the most popular violation I have seen others do and done myself it is working things hot that should be LOTO.
It is the main reason I like to see disconnects close to or attached to equipment (in spite of the rule that allows LOTO breakers). If you can reach over and turn it off folks usually will but if it is down in the basement and you are on a ladder on the 3d floor you probably won't.
Standing on the top of a ladder!

[Linked Image]
My failings are; Hate and hardly ever wear dust masks, as they steam up my glasses, and never have safety glasses on when I should, because all the ones I have are scratched so badly it's like working in a fog.
Alan
Posted By: Trumpy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/12/05 07:33 AM
I've pulled 11kV and 22kV Expulsion fuses before today without gloves on, although using an Insulated Hot-stick though.
There are things you have to do, when a building is burning.
I've also climbed a pole (on a PoCo ladder) under the same circumstances, to pull out the 400V fuses, with no climbing belt or gloves on.
I know the risk, otherwise I would not have done it.
In a "persons-reported" house fire, I want FF's in there as soon as possible, and they won't enter until the house is dead.
Just my $0.02 worth. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/12/05 07:44 AM
Get down off of that ladder Joe, you'll fall!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/12/05 04:44 PM
Alan, I solved the safety glasses problem when I moved to Florida. I keep sunglasses on a croaky all the time to save myself from cataracts and I choose safety glass styles. I will pop them on at the first hint of an eye hazard.
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/12/05 05:15 PM
John,
Quote
using your toolbox lock on a lock-out
- buying your own lock-outs
I don't understand why either of these is a safety violation.
Don
Other safety rules I break regularly through familiarity:
Changing cutters/bits/blades with the power on & just the tool/machine switch at "off", I bet most of us do this.
Careless with superglue = stuck fingers.
Stopping lathe chucks/drill chucks with my palm. = Occasional skinned knuckles and friction burns.
Working with a steadily mounting scattering of sawdust/shavings/offcuts/filings/trims on the floor, as a trip hazard. Ditto extension cords on floor.
Occasional use of cement mortar: Using hands as a "trowel" = cement burns and no fingerprints.
Stirring animal glue-pot with finger to see if it's hot yet.
Striking an arc when stick-welding with the visor up. Not often, 'arc-eye' smarts later!!
Checking the spraygun pattern by painting the back of my hand.
And worse of all, too idle to walk down the shop for a pair of disposable gloves when using "just a little dab" of polyurethane glue. Result; ghastly permanent stains all over the fingers, etc. Poison? Allergy? No, much worse, a rollocking!
"We are going out tonight and just look at your hands! - Oh! and is that glue on your new shirt!!"
Alan
Don, that's a good question- and I can hardly accept the answers I've received either!

OSHA specifically requires a dedicated lock for lock-out duty, specifically so employees will NOT use the locks for their toolboxes. It was explained to me that this was to prevent a departing employee from removing the lock, and leaving an unsafe condition for the next shift.
My own take is that 1) if I use my lock I sure won't leave the stuff locked out accidentally, or forget to inform the next shift, and 2) that is often the most convenient lock available- and LOTO is something to be encouraged!

OSHA rules also state that ONLY LOTO equipment supplied by the employer shall be used. While I agree that employers should provide all safety equipment, there is no guarantee that the stuff will be available where you need it, when you need it- even in the best-run places.

So I happily use MY lock on MY devices, on the principle that I'd rather be safe than 'OSHA compliant."

Yet, according to the book, I am an outlaw. Thus this thread- sometimes the rules are simply wrong, and actually create a hazard.

While there is a place for rules, there is also a place for their thoughtful application. Or for casting them aside. That is my view. What say you?
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/13/05 02:58 AM
John,
Quote
It was explained to me that this was to prevent a departing employee from removing the lock, and leaving an unsafe condition for the next shift.
Actually you are required by OSHA to do exactly that. You are required to remove your lock at the end of the shift. The rule does not permit you to leave your lock in place if you are not working on the equipment.
Don
John
I've broken just about every rule there is.

Fear and common sense regulate my life.

Rob
Posted By: mxslick Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/13/05 05:47 AM
resqcapt19 posted:

Quote
Actually you are required by OSHA to do exactly that. You are required to remove your lock at the end of the shift. The rule does not permit you to leave your lock in place if you are not working on the equipment.

O.K., but what about instances where the equipment being worked on MUST stay de-energized because work is not yet completed? So OSHA, in their infinite wisdom says ya gotta take your lock off when you leave?!? It does indeed leave an unsafe condition!! To h**l with OSHA, if the damn thing isn't ready to be energized, my lock stays on for however long it has to!!

Another example of agency mentality!!

A stupid rule I will break every time! If the equipment isn't safe to turn on, my lock stays and contact me if they need to know why.

{Ok, now that I'm done ranting I feel better. [Linked Image] }

I need some green tea.....Earl Grey perhaps.
I see Joe finally took my advice, Trumpy.

For YEARS I've been telling him if you stand on TOP of the ladder, the safety guy cannot see the sticker, hence, no violation.

[Linked Image]
Dammit Trumpy, that's not me, I wouldn't do that ... jumping to conclusions again!!

This image was posted a while back here in another thread ..
Posted By: Hazmat Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/13/05 06:49 PM
I don't post often, as I'm no electrician. Just a lowly safety guy who steals info (OK, borrows it) from here. However, I need to say, OSHA doesn't say you may not leave your lock on at the end of the shift.

What the LOTO standard says is that I may not leave MY lock on if someone is to continue working on the de-energized equipment. Mine must be removed and the next shift guy or gal must replace it with their own.

If NO one will continue working on it, and I'll just come back in the next day (or whenever) and continue the project, my lock may stay in place...for what it's worth.
I see that we can have quite a LOTO talk here....guys, would you please give me a day or two- I promise to open a thread, and have some |source info" posted with it?
Thanks
Posted By: gfretwell Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/14/05 04:14 AM
LOTO is fine as long as you have a small number of workers who are sure where they are going tomorrow but it was far from a sure system when IBM tried it. If the guys who LOed the equipment were there until it was restored to a safe condition and they could take their lock it was fine. You could even turn over a problem and swap locks fairly easily. The problem was who's lock do you leave on if the equipment is still in an unsafe condition and everyone goes home. If you guess wrong and the guy who's lock is attached ends up going somewhere else in the morning his lock might fall to the bolt cutter when they get things going. He also doesn't have a lock. They decided there would be a "facility lock" for these things but then they had a question of who holds that key, tag etc. It defeated the spirit of one man, one lock.

I will fight for a "within sight" disconnect every time.
Search at www.osha.gov

29 CFR ยง 1910.147 The control of hazardous energy (lockout/tagout)
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9804
Posted By: Trumpy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/15/05 05:52 AM
What's all this?.
Quote
Dammit Trumpy, that's not me, I wouldn't do that ... jumping to conclusions again!!

Oh well, I'm over it.
You can only guess, with the amount of information supplied.
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 07-15-2005).]
Clue: Pants not split. [Linked Image]
Alan
Posted By: poorboy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/19/05 10:20 AM
Got a few guys who won't stop using step ladders leaned against buildings like an extension ladder. After you take one ride you will stop.

Same guys stand on 5 gal pails to work and even "walk" on them in a side-to-side motion. Again, after taking the weight off one foot and having the pail instantly kick out sideways (real hard on ankles) you are a little gun shy to do this.
Posted By: techie Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/19/05 08:21 PM
Quote
LOTO is fine as long as you have a small number of workers who are sure where they are going tomorrow but it was far from a sure system when IBM tried it. If the guys who LOed the equipment were there until it was restored to a safe condition and they could take their lock it was fine. You could even turn over a problem and swap locks fairly easily. The problem was who's lock do you leave on if the equipment is still in an unsafe condition and everyone goes home. If you guess wrong and the guy who's lock is attached ends up going somewhere else in the morning his lock might fall to the bolt cutter when they get things going. He also doesn't have a lock. They decided there would be a "facility lock" for these things but then they had a question of who holds that key, tag etc. It defeated the spirit of one man, one lock.

I think there is a solution to this.. each man carries several locks:
- one or more that are assigned to him alone,
- several that are assigned to the crew (electric, plumbing, steam, etc) that everybody on the crew has a key to,
- a couple that are assigned to a specific workorder, where the key travels with the paperwork.

Everybody also carries several LOTO devices that accept multiple locks.

The equipment gets locked out with the locks of the individuals currently working on the job, PLUS a crew lock or a workorder lock, which gets left on until the job is complete, and the workorder signed off.

Best makes an interesting lock, where there cylinder is recessed, and there are two sets of holes that allow two other locks to be locked in place blocking access to the keyway.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/21/05 08:59 PM
LOTO devices.
They're more than just for breakfast anymore. [Linked Image]
You have the multi-lock tag:

[Linked Image]

Lockouts for valves:

[Linked Image]

For more valves:

[Linked Image]

Or even a whole station of padlocks and other things:

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 07-21-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 07-27-2005).]
Posted By: Big Ed Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 07/22/05 12:28 PM
The way we get around the question of whose lock stays on is to lock everything with a plant designated (and numbered) lock. All the keys for the locks on the system go into a metal box and you lock onto the box. There is a designated lock on each box (there will always be at least 2 locks if someone is on the lockout) that is numbered for the box. If the work is not signed off on, the designated lock stays on, and so do all of the other locks.

We have to have a system like this because many of our lockouts have 8-12 locking points, and during a maint. outage you may have 20 people who need on the lockout.

It makes for an interesting chain of multi-lock devices.

Ed
I am making a real effort to be safer, spurred by this thread.
First, I put a proper temporary rail up, in the renovation, round the bare stairwell. Next, I gathered all the oils, paints, varnishes, solvents, meth, spirits and other flammables and put them in a dedicated cabinet, (fire risk). Selected a drawer soley for chisels etc. Finally got round to fitting all the fire extinguishers on proper wall brackets. The hardest part has been keeping to the new 'management policy' of power-off each night at breakers, sweeping/vacuuming up shavings each day, cutting offcuts to firewood daily and putting it in the log shed/fire patch, and always wearing my dust masks and goggles, ( I even bought 2 new pairs of goggles!).
What are you planning to do to avoid your future accidents?
Alan
Hotline Tags at the "power company" will usually be assigned to the crew leader.

In cases where the crew can't complete the work, i.e. serious storm damage, their tags will usually get signed over to the dispatcher until the next crew arrives or the work is completed.

If it is daily work, the crew will get a new Hotline Tag the next day.

Utility enclosures are locked and have penta-bolt latches regardless of operating condition. Or they are about 35ft.+ up on a pole. [Linked Image]

Wes
Posted By: Trumpy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 08/27/05 04:28 PM
Wes,
Generally what will happen here in a Crew situation is the ACB at each end of the circuit will be locked out by everyone working on it.
Then all of the lines will be Grounded on both sides of the work area.
You have 2 padlocks, each with thier own key.
There is no way that there is a Master key.
To close that ACB you have to have all of the locks off of it and the agreement of the Control-room Operator who is in constant contact with the Safety Observer.
Here are the rules from OSHA that apply in the USA

Regulations (Standards - 29 CFR) The control of hazardous energy (lockout/tagout)1910.147
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9804
Posted By: richard Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 08/28/05 04:05 PM
I was working for an electrical contractor at an international shipping company, working on 480 volt motor, my lock and tag were cut off by a supervisor, because he assumed I had left the lock on the day before. You have to constantly be on your guard because a lock is too easily cut by a bolt cutter
Posted By: CTwireman Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 08/28/05 10:02 PM
Richard, that "Stupidvisor" should have been dragged out and shot immediately. His assumption and mistake could have cost you your life! Ignorance is one thing, but deliberately cutting a lock is quite another!! [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Peter

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 08-28-2005).]
Posted By: richard Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 08/28/05 11:44 PM
Yes, he had to be retrained in their safty program. I always treat wires as if they are live, and I test before making connections
Retrained? In my experience, you can't educate pork.
Alan
Posted By: Spock Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 11/02/05 06:34 AM
LOTO... why does such a simple system cause so much pain?

each guy has their own keyed locks... usually not the common ones off your toolbox because of the increased chance of a common key on site...

group leaders, operators, shift supers etc have access to a mass of locks and lockout boxes for group lockouts, run around and lock the plant down, then drop all keys in the box, the guys all lock the box with their personal locks... can't reactivate till all individual locks are removed..

use access permits, particularly in plant or "PoCo" situations to aid in handovers and control of larger jobs

use out of service tags.. and enforce the meaning of them...

don't leave your locks on when you leave.. have a process for tracking down personel if the locks are left on... and a process for checking the system status and physically eyeball to ensure the guy isn't up to his ankles in the bowels of the gear before removing "forgotten" locks...

hang draw and quarter anyone who cuts locks w'out following the above process, same for anyone who leaves locks on when they leave..

if your worried about taking your locks off overnight, pull the tails so it can't operate no matter how many times you operate the isolator.

inform ppl of what goes on.. why is the gear down and staying down.

now where did i put that asbestos/nomex weave suit...

Spock
Posted By: Spock Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 11/02/05 06:35 AM
oh.. and in response to the original question.. i'm a shocker for live work..always use gloves long cottons and glasses... just got trained in the bad old days when it was normal.

Spock
Posted By: Trumpy Re: What safety rules do you often break? - 11/03/05 09:06 PM
Here's one of the tags I use at work:

[Linked Image]

With people having cellphones with them 9 times out of 10 here, I find that writing your cell No. on the back of the tag helps a lot.

Spock,
Good call on the use of "Out of Service" tags.
If these were used and used properly and actually taken notice of, I'm sure that a few workplace injuries could be prevented.
One thing that I don't think is widely known (at least it isn't here in NZ),is the fact that anyone can fit these tags, wether they be a maintenance team member or a Labourer.
Only a service-man can remove them after the correct repair has been undertaken.

{Message edited to add last bit}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-03-2005).]
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