ECN Forum
Posted By: Josh Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/03/02 07:36 PM
I’m new to the board so my apologies in advance if I hit on a topic already discussed. I am in the process of helping a friend wire in his Spa when I discovered he had an Federal Pacific electric panel with “stab loc: type circuit breakers. I have seen many articles on the web stating that these circuit breakers fail to trip on over current conditions and are fire hazards. I’d like to solicit your opinions on Federal Pacific breakers. Are they a problem? Should my friend have them replaced?
Posted By: Tom Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/03/02 09:08 PM
FPE breakers, in the opinion of many, are to be avoided at all costs. They should be pounded into dust, preferably using a very large hammer (power off, of course).

I always recommend replacement of the entire panelboard when I run across this brand. Besides, the premium price that you will pay for a couple of breakers, especially 2 pole, will almost buy a new 100 amp panel. I can imagine what you'll pay for a GFI breaker for one of these panels.

Jerk the panel out, junk it and we'll all sleep better knowing that another one has bit the dust.

Tom
Posted By: CTwireman Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/03/02 09:17 PM
Tom said it all. Junk the panel

A 2 pole FPE GFI for a spa will be hideously expensive, if you can find one.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/03/02 11:54 PM
I "third" the motion...

Trash 'em.
Posted By: circuit man Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 01:33 AM
i agree with the guys, JUNK IT. i have one in my house , belive it or not they actually trip. real old panel. but my neighbor had one. he wanted to run 230 to his shop, after looking at the price of a new 20 circuit panel& all the brekers we needed to replace,we still come out cheaper.it seems the reason there so high is there was a class action lawsuit against them in the 80's. the reason i say this is because i saw the memo.again just throw that junk away & put in a quality panel, that way both you & your friend can sleep better at night.ERWIN
Posted By: motor-T Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 01:57 AM
To All:
I agree with all the posts above, but I saw a scary advertisement in either EC&M or CEE. It shows a picture of Air-Force One, and the caption says, and I paraphrase, Protected by Federal Pacific if that isnt down right frightening I dont know what is.
Mark
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 02:33 AM
I'm not sure, but Federal Pacific Electric and this "new" Federal Pacific may not be the same company, and if they're not, their marketing team needs to be replaced...

Change your name or live with the reputation...

<disclaimer> Just MHO </disclaimer>
Posted By: Redsy Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 12:05 PM
See also link titled "FPE Policy" dated 1-7-02
Posted By: Josh Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 02:37 PM
Thanks for the info! You guys are right: It is hard as hell to get a FPE GFI circuit breaker. I don’t know the cost yet because I haven’t been able to locate one! I will pass the info on to my friend before he purchases a Pacific Federal circuit breaker.
Posted By: mamills Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 04:27 PM
Hi, Josh.
I used to have a Federal Pacific in my house, and I'll admit, never had a moment's trouble with it. I starting reading some of the comments these guys wrote, then began having trouble sleeping at night, worrying about the possibility of a fire. I tossed the Federal Pacific a few months ago and installed a new Square D in its place. Cost not withstanding, it's nice to have something that you can depend on to function when it has to.
You and your friend would be well advised to upgrade to a better panel. In addition to losing the Federal Pacific, I would strongly advise staying away from Zinsco. In my years in the fire service, I have been to several calls related to Zinsco failures.

Glad to have you here!

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 07:14 PM
Seems that the legal deal with FPE's Stab-Lok breakers was on 2 Pole units failing to open automatically, during an Overcurrent or Overload situation.
For some reason, the 2 pole 50's come to mind as being the key players. Maybe from their use as Main breakers / disconnects for Residential panels, or used on Residential Kitchen Appliances, or Residential Heat Pumps.

I am not saying the FPE Stab Lok product line is only "Tarnished" by those certain frames, only that the loss of UL and the law stuff was directed at certain frames.

I have seen FPE Stab Lok 20/1 pole breakers trip from Overloads quite often [maybe too often - as they trip long before 20 amps has been exceeded!]. The same device would not trip during a Fault situation which fell into it's plotted range [well below 500 amps!].
This is true to many of the FPE Stab Lok frames I have seen subjected to low level Faults - either first hand or "To Fix Things When S**T Happened".

For Zinsco F / FM Frames, they sometimes trip from Overloads [gradual increased overloads - same as the FPE's] - most 20/1's will hold 25+ amps for more than 10 minutes, some for ever!

Faults of any intensity rarely trip these devices.

I have personally welded the contacts of two[2] different 20/1 units - at different locations - while throwing the handle into the "ON" position.

Each time, there was an error made in circuitry which was the problem.
One was a mistakenly terminated branch circuit [Line and Grounded Conductor terminated together], the other was a pinched ungrounded conductor, caught between a Receptacle's 6/32 screw and the box.
Fortunately, I only did the pinched wire, not the bad termination. [Linked Image]

Along with the above items, the higher costs of these devices makes them "Bad" in my mind.

Scott SET
Posted By: motor-T Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 07:53 PM
To All;
A few years ago a customer wanted me to upgrade a two-family dwelling but wanted to keep a Siemens panel that had been installed within the last 6-months, and wanted to know if that were possible, I said ok but let me check with the inspector, afterall if he doesnt like its coming out.
Called the inspector and explained what I had and his first question was , "It aint FPE is it "? I assured him it wasnt and he said it was ok.
To Scott
Enjoyed your post especially the references to FPE and Zinsco, someitmes trip on an overload. I have had problems with both not tripping infact one time even the 120 and 15 amp breakers. I always try to talk people into upgrading away from those two, anything but FPE or Zinsco, that stuff is almost as bad as Klockner-Moeller.
-Mark-
Posted By: Tom Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/04/02 08:57 PM
There are plenty of single pole FPE breakers that cannot be made to trip, even if you ground out the wire to the neutral bus of the panel (don't ask).

Add to this the following experiance, about half the time, many of the breakers fall out when you remove the box cover. Many other times, the breakers are held in place by the stab-loc welding itself to the busbar from so much arcing. This is a high resistance connection & the breakers run hot.

The only good FPE breaker is one that is headed to the landfill.
Posted By: electure Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/05/02 12:58 AM
They're still made, now by the same company that owns Square D. Schneider. Schneider/Canada has the patent for "Federal Pioneer". It looks like they're having some recalls in Ontario, as well.
They're also common in Mexico, from what I understand.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 03-04-2002).]
Posted By: circuit man Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/05/02 03:16 AM
electure , i saw somewhere about the FPE breakers but it wasn't scneider. maybe it has chhanged hands again. LOL! a lot of heat from such a sorry breaker. i cut into a 20 amp circuit in a fpe sub panel supplied by a square d 100amp breaker. as you can proably guess the 100 amp tripped first.that was spooky. thought i was going to have to change my shorts! LOL!
Posted By: CRW Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/05/02 03:27 AM
I have an FPE panel in my house, which I bought last year. I plan on changing it soon. Although I haven't had any problems with it, besides it being too small(dimensions) and making me nervous thinking about all this stuff. I have had 2 1-pole 15's trip so far, 1 for a short, and 1 for an overload.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/05/02 01:48 PM
The link shown in the "FPE Policy" topic provides some good technical information pertaining to actual testing of FPE units.
I have decided to print this out and hand a copy to any customer who has a FPE panel.
Then they can make an informed decision without feeling that they are being misled into an changeover they don't need.
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/05/02 03:21 PM
Josh:

Look here for more specific information related to the equipment you described:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpefire.htm
Posted By: electure Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/06/02 12:09 AM
As for my post, try: www.schneider-electric.ca/www/txt/html/frontpage.htm


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 03-05-2002).]
Posted By: sparky Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/06/02 10:43 AM
and the saga continues....


Addendum: 7/99 Reply to IAEI International Association of Electrical Inspectors News Magazine re: FPE Public Relations PR Article asserts Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Lok panels are OK

8/11/99

International Association of Electrical Inspectors
ATTN: Philip H. Cox, Editor-in-Chief, IAEI Magazine
PO Box 830848
Richardson TX 75083-0848
Dear Mr. Cox:

The May/June '99 IAEI News article by an unidentified FPE consultant asserts
that Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Loks are UL-Listed and thus without any
concern. The article fails to address a record of failures to trip, actual test
results, field reports of failures, and improper UL listing practices. The FPE
author and IAEI News failed to report on the actual website content, failed to
contact the author, and failed to give the correct website address so that
readers could judge for themselves. I am an IAEI member and the author of the
informational website for home inspectors which was referred-to in the FPE
article. The correct Internet website address is http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

Publicly available information is compelling and sufficient to warrant warning
contractors, inspectors, and consumers. The best data available substantiates
that the 2-pole breakers cannot be relied upon to trip. CPSC found that was the
case. FPE agreed that that was the case. Field reports confirm that that is
still the case. Inspectors should work towards replacing breakers that won't
trip, not towards whitewashing the problem.

The problem with FPE breakers is that a significant portion of them will not
trip on overload or short circuit conditions in order to protect a building from
fire ignition. Testing done by the CPSC showed that at a modest overload on both
poles these failed 25% of the time, followed by a lockup. The breaker would
never trip in the future at any overload. (See Table 1, Summary of Failures,
CPSC-C-81-1429 December 30, 1982, attached.) There are other types of failures
known to occur in FPE panels at lower probability and not as well documented as
the 2-pole no-trip problem.

FPE did not refute the CPSC's test data. The no-trip problems with 2-pole
Stab-Lok breakers were acknowledged by FPE. FPE claims that when their circuit
breakers do not trip it does not constitute a hazard.
The article in IAEI News
by FPE is asking us to agree with FPE's position that breakers that won't trip
are OK because they are "listed and labeled." Let's keep in mind that a breaker
that will not trip on certain overcurrent conditions is electrically the same as
an Edison-base fuse with a penny behind it. No inspector should be encouraged to
condone or whitewash the continued use of breakers that cannot be depended on to
trip properly.

These problems were known. Reliance Electric Co. had bought FPE in 1979 when
they discovered problems with FPE breakers. They sued the company they had
bought FPE from, claiming undisclosed potential liability made FPE not what they
had bargained for and citing evidence that "improper and deceptive practices
were employed for many years to secure UL listings for Federal Pacific's circuit
protective products…" They wanted their money back. Reliance eventually settled
the suit, kept FPE, and got back $41.85 million in return for which they agreed
to indemnify the company they'd bought FPE from for product liability claims
arising from products made by FPE before the purchase.

Continuing problems can't be ruled out. For example, see the Federal
Pacific/Federal Pioneer circuit breaker warranty alert issued by the Ontario New
Home Warranty Program in 1997 (copy attached). These products are still present
in the field!
Reports from consumers and electricians indicate failures to trip,
overheating, and fires.

Note also that the author of the FPE article did not want to have his or her
name associated with it and that the FPE contact listed is an attorney retained
(presumably) by FPE. The information address given in the article would have
been more accurate if given as: Howard B. Abramoff Law Offices, 25700 Science
Park Dr. Suite 260, Cleveland OH 44122. This is a law firm, not a
circuit-breaker manufacturer. This confirms that the article is biased towards
the defense of FPE rather than providing information on "… the safe installation
and use of electricity" (IAEI's mission statement in the magazine's masthead).

As a neutral professional, I'd be pleased to receive reliable information
shedding new light on the situation. But a public relations article written by
someone whose aim is to protect FPE's interests and which fails to address
legitimate concerns and the known failures and problems occurring around the
country is not something I'd rely upon. Based on my experience and numerous
reports from people with no axes to grind, it appears that FPE circuit breakers
frequently fail to perform their function. A circuit breaker may sit in a
building for twenty years, and as long as it never sees an overload or short
circuit it may seem to work fine. But if it cannot perform its function to
interrupt current when overloaded or short circuited, that circuit breaker is a
latent fire hazard. Such equipment should be replaced.

Respectfully,

Dan Friedman, IAEI #195930

oh the shame, the shame.... [Linked Image]
Posted By: sparky Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/06/02 10:56 AM
Quote
However a building inspector, home inspector, or contractor who makes any warranty of safety, by virtue of his/her position close to the consumer, is certain bear this very liabilty.

seems to be our call.... [Linked Image]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/06/02 11:52 PM
Just got a call today from the local Post Office, they want simply three sets of floods on motion sensors on various sides of the building.

"No problem, let me see your panel to see what brand of breaker I need"

Here it is:

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

And working clearances is a problem...

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

So, the dilemna is... leave the panel or get into a working clearances problem with replacing it... (No disco)...

What to do?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-06-2002).]
Posted By: Redsy Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/07/02 02:47 AM
sparky66wv,
I personally would try to convince them to change the panel. The work involved in relocating the panel would probably merit a grandfathering. See if an AHJ agrees.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/07/02 03:43 AM
Failed to mention that this Post Office was built in 1986 and I'm a little suspicious of the "newness" of the FPE panel installed...

When did they quit selling the stabloks?
Posted By: sparky Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 03/07/02 11:07 AM
LOL!
Great example of the industry's hold Virg...

now turn yer head & cough....
:ceek:
Posted By: philwhosis Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 04/21/02 10:53 PM
I'm president of my coop building. All 15 units have Federal Pacific panels. We have recently been made aware of their potential hazards and are looking into changing the panels.
However, people are asking if it would be safe enough to just replace the circuit breakers rather than paying for new panels? I've sometimes heard the circuit breakers are expensive, but seem to have found a rather inexpensive fit online at
www.connecticut-electric.com/breaker.asp

So the question is twofold:
-are these replacement parts any good?
-will replacing the breakers fix the safety issue?
Posted By: sparky Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 04/21/02 11:31 PM
philwhosis;
An additional Q would also be if the AHJ deems it necessary to update the breakers serving bedroom 'oulets' to AFCI's.
This then would introduce the need for after-market Fed-Pac AFCI's which may be hard to find.
Posted By: smackypete Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 04/22/02 03:20 AM
I have a personal experiance with FP breakers. 30A clothes dryer circuit shorted inside the recepticle, eventually started to arc and caught fire. FP breaker never tripped. If someone hadn't been at home, I guess house would have burned down. (Actually, we never leave house with dryer running, but you get the point...)
Posted By: caselec Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 04/22/02 04:16 AM
I am not sure how to post a link here but if you go to the following address it will show all of the Stab-Lok breakers currently made including Arc-Fault breakers. http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/ecat/documents/b_section.pdf
I work in a campus that is filled with federal pacific breakers and panels.

We have thousands of them.

50% of the time the breaker will not trip on over current. The breaker will make a humming sound but it will hold strong w/o tripping.

My theory at first was the lack of exercise on these breakers as they are in a state facility with little to zero preventative maintenance.

But after hearing all of these complaints I'm not so sure it isn't the breakers that aren't the culprit.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Federal Pacific circuit breakers - 04/23/02 08:42 PM
Hello again, one & all,

I speak as an unbiased foreigner who has no experience of FP breakers, of course, but it's interesting to see your comments about the price of replacements as I've just received a (U.S.) hardware catalog which includes electrical equipment.

Single-pole 20A C/B:

Thomas & Betts $2.91
Siemens $3.50
G.E. $4.26
Square D $5.74

Federal Pacific compatible (made by Unique Breakers, Inc.) $16.12

Quite a difference!
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