I've recently heard of a discussion that went on at a local meeting about there not being any laws or rules against a Builder wiring "his own" House(s) without a License.

This doesn't sound good.
What do you think?

Bill

In many places a renter or owner can perform electric work without a license (a permit is required).

In those locations the builder could do the work on property he owns. A twist in the problem comes about if the property is owned by the builder's business.

I like the general idea because it allows one to start a small business.

One & Two Family's here need no License

I beleive this was done by a licensed electrician. So having a license does not make one a good electrician. It makes more sense to me to allow anyone to do electrical work, but require complete inspections. With real inspections people doing poor electrical work would not be able to stay in business long.

Some form of completion insurance would probably be needed to protect consumers. From the poor electricians that go out of business quickly.

Sparky,

It is no surprise to me that your state has agressively embraced AFCI protection.

Rbiro,

We don't really have to have the "License doesn't prove anything" argument again here. An Inspector cannot possibly see or know everything about an installation. I would like to hear some Inspector opinions on this.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 02-28-2002).]

Sorry, I didn't mean to bring up old fights and I definitely did not mean to imply that licenses are worthless. They just don't make someone care about their work.

I would also like to hear from some inspectors. I suspect that it's possible but just not economical to inspect everything as much as I would like.

First I'd like to "Hi" to all of you I have been lurking, reading, laughing, shaking my head and nodding ( for about 8 mos) . and my hats off to you all a job well done here!
I am an AHJ in a large city in mass,we have 4 full time AHJ's

Bill

As for the non-electrician permit's , we do allow it BUT , ( you knew that was comming I know )
1. It MUST be a single family home only .
( NO Condo's)
2. you MUST be the owner
3. you MUST live there
4. you must pull a permit and have all your inspections

any other kind of dewlling requires a lic electrician to do the work

Now this does have it's down falls , for one most times they don't pass the 1st inspection if it requires too many they have to pay additional fee's , but alot of times , they do this because they have a friend who works for someone full time and they do not have the proper INS's ( ie liability or workmans comp )which is required here for electrician's to pull permits, now do I think it's a good idea?
hmmm I suppose you'll want my thought's on AFCI's too !!! LOL
nice chattin with ya! hope I was of help
P.S. it is not dissallowed by MEC unless you try and pay yourself!

Rbiro,

Your point is conceded.

There are things that can happen or methods of installation that can damage materials or equipment that cannot be seen during any inspection. A knowledgable person would know to avoid certain things or take certain precautions. The best intentions alone cannot ensure a trouble free installation. And, Builders are not generally well known for putting good intentions above the bottom dollar.

Bill

PS, Welcome to our New Member from Mass.

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 02-28-2002).]

HIGHVOLTAGE,

No, I will not put you on the spot about AFCIs (unless you want to volunteer something) but I would like to know about the noticable lack of street signs in Mass and why Bathroom light switches are outside the room?

Seriously though, do you think that everything can be seen during a visual inspection, no matter how thorough?

Bill

Bill,
You know the type of inspections I do. I am basically on the job at all times work is being performed. Do I miss things? All the time. NO inspector could catch everything, especially during a cursory inspection. Should be ban homeowners from doing their own work, if it is inspected? Absolutely not. VA has the same rules for homeowners as quoted by Highvoltage. It does occasionally allow some sloppy work, but the inspector needs to take a bit extra time on these, again, done professionally or amateur does not guarantee success or failure. My opinion dude, ya asked us to ring in, just don't 'pull my leg' again. BTW; still in cast, MAY be allowed to return to work next Wednesday.

George,

Thanks for joining in. My question (and concern) is not about the Homeowner and their own house, but the Builder, through some technicality, being able to wire a whole neighborhood full of houses because they are 'his' until he sells them.

Bill

You know this has to be a compromise. Homeowners are going to do the work themselves if they "know how", and usually without a permit. Requiring a license to do it won't change that basic fact. We all know how badly the homeowners oftentimes wire things, not to mention the small time builder that fancies himself/herself qualified to do some dinky branch circuit work. Laws are only good if they can be enforced. Until the day comes when detailed as-builts are made for residential wiring, there is no way to control who does the wiring, no way to tell what wiring was part of the original installation..once the sheet rock is covering it. Along with as-builts, there would have to be a mandatory inspection any time the house was sold, or rented, in order to know who to hang for the illegal work!

Elzappr..
ding-ding-ding!
My AHJ(s) are sooo booked up, they view some jobs from thier truck seat, motor going...
(in park, maybe....)

Bill...

[rant mode...]

Exactly what happens, no permits or inspections required. Substandard work , i.e.- no 'dedicated' circitry for instance.
This is further complicated by 'Customer Owned' service laterals
(poco wears de dark glasses..)
No requirement or certification for Home Inspectors, None also for a 'GC'....

So Yes! AFCI's probably looked like a cure-all to the powers that be here! , yet the irony is that it won't happen on many jobs!

Fallout? you betcha! banks are sending in thier 'inspectors' , buncha never-had-a-blister dudes who 'vouch' for the construction ( mostly energy code concerns)

Individuals are contesting thier mortgage lenders , defaulting on substandard work loaned on....Bona Fide tradesmen are being asked to view & document as ammo....

Montpelier ( state cap) has held some hearings & if i'm ever invited they'll probably be givin' me a rabies shot before I leave.

High voltage, I am also in Mass and I want to point out something that always seems to be brought up at code update classes. The wording for permit rquirements in the Massachusetts amendments states that any person installing electrical wiring "for hire" must take out permits.... This is always pointed out as a loophole, wiring your own house, no permit needed, installing some outlets for Aunt Jenny, no permit required. Also another point, Im sure you know this Hi V, for electricians without insurance there is a waiver on the permit application that the homeowner can sign to waive the insurance requirement. Would I sign this as homeowner? No way! By the way what area in MA are you. I work form Worcetster to Boston. Wonder if we have met.

I know that this issue goes against the grain of some, but there is something fundamentally wrong with it. To argue that the owner of the castle can do anything they want without proving some knowledge of it ignores the rights and shows no consideration for the 'innocents' that may also live there or may later live there or in close proximity.

My opinion is that, for public safety, any new construction or major renovations should be done by someone that is certified by the state or municipality (to the best of their ability) as being competant to the task and aware of the pertinent safety issues of what they are doing. If the owner wants to do something let them pass at least a basic competancy test and keep the records of who did what for the review of the Insurance Companies and any prospective buyers. I would think that any jurisdiction that does not require something along these lines is opening themselves to a big liability for ignoring public safety. I suppose though, that the way these things go, that there may be other issues that I am not aware of and things are not that simple.

[/rant]
Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-01-2002).]

In many suburban Philadelphia PA areas, Use & Occupancy Certificates are required in order to sell your home. The inspection can sometimes catch obvious electrical safety problems resulting from poor wiring practices performed by the homeowner or do-all contractor. So, it is becoming known more and more that if you don't pay now, you may have to pay later.

Redsy,

That sounds like a step in the right direction, but without it being known that some proof of competancy is expected and required the work will go on much as it has. Without imposing some requirements on this the General Public is likely to not give many things a second thought. Too many people think that replacing a Fixture, a 'Socket' or 'Plug' is such a minor thing that it can't do any harm. My opinion is that these things are what causes most of the electrical-related fires.

These new requirements should generate revenue for the municipality from fees collected and in theory, (that perfect world) people that play it by the rules should be able to get lower insurance rates that would offset their other costs. I think it could work.
What do you think?

Bill

I'd like to throw in a little bit of mud...

Here (from what I am to understand) in WV, one can do their own work, on property that they own... However, it is unclear to me whether said person must live there, or if this can be applied to "rental propety" as well, said landlord doing his own work...

Comments?

Virgil,

If a Landlord can do Electrical Work on his own property then maybe He should be asked to pay DOUBLE Insurance Premiums? I think it only makes sense.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-01-2002).]

I live in a small city in Ohio which requires no license or inspections. The only inspection would be required on a State level for schools, nursing homes, etc.
I also am a firefighter in the same city and see first hand some of the wiring mistakes after the fact most of the time.

My nephew is a contractor in Michigan. His business plan includes building a home for himself every two years and then selling it and building again.

He does this for tax reasons.

He also did his own rough electric in his house. He lacks an electrical license. He does have a permit and because he is the property owner he can do the electrical work.

He asked me to do the finished electric. I made several observations while doing so. (I did so without a license as I was only asked to install recepts, fans and the like.

First, his planning was bad. I have no idea why a circuit would handle an outdoor outlet, one dining room light (out of 3) and one living room light (out of 8 and on the side away from the dining room).

Second, he had hard to find mistakes. He had a light and ceiling fan sharing a box but powered by different breakers. This is a real bad place to share a neutral. (I tied the breakers together.) In the middle of a 20amp circuit he had a 14g wire. (This was do to a change in his wiring plans.) I changed to a 15amp breaker.

An inspector would never catch these mistakes. He does not have the time to spend.

-----

I do wiring on property I own without a license.

Michigan does indeed allow a homeowner to secure a permit for wiring.

A homeowner is defined as follows:
A homeowner is a person who occupies or will occupy a single-family dwelling and
other accessory structures located on the same lot intended for use by the
homeowner for which the permit is obtained and who will install the
electrical equipment as certified by the homeowner on the permit application
in accordance with section 10(4) of 1972 PA 230, MCL §125.1510(4).

I do end up spending quite a bit more time inspecting some of these jobs, 'cause as was mentioned earlier, the folk that buy the house next really don't know who wired the house.
You will also note that homeowners may not secure a permit to allow anyone else to work in the home.

Bill

About the Builders pulling permit's and selling houses ,,,,this something closely watched , and we do retain the right to refuse , as for not pulling one on a new home, well the building inspector will NOT even inspect without the proper signitures on the permit first ie elec ,plumbing, gas and in some towns Mech .
If someone pulls more than one building permit he will NOT be granted and elec permit.
also on the permit he states it's his own home . not just something he owns .

99% of the Builders don't play with this , not if they want to keep building around town,
does it happen probably but i haven't seen it,
i can't speak for other towns or cities but here, we have 4 elec inspectors 3 plumbing,1 gas,4 building, and 8 housing inspectors , driving around all day , any of them see anything , we are all on radios , i could be standing behind you in under 10 mins ,,,lol
not to mention Fire inspectors ( about 10)

today i got a call from fire , workers ran an extention cord across the STREET from one new home to work on another one , took me about 5 mins , then i start checking lic's, permits , and safety (OSHA) violations .
and if I need them the police are on the same radio frequency .

dlabrenz, HIGHVOLTAGE,

Thank You for your responses. It sounds like you guys are on top of things there. It makes me feel better.

You may have heard about a House that Blew up recently on Long Island. I didn't hear too many details, but got the impression that there was not much left of it. Some people that were interviewed were saying something about how "handy" the owner of the house was, doing his own work and even designing his own Gas Furnace. Now, I never heard definitely what the cause of the explosion was, but it it should make people wonder about some things.

Bill

[war story]
ahh yes, years ago i responded to a similar incident. the owner had run out of gas, the gas co. would not come due to his account in arrears. said resident hooked his barb-q grill bottle into the furn, no reg. He did manage to get to the top of the stairs, where upon switching the ceallar lights ( time given for the gas bottle to fill the furn, etc.) there was a notable blast that sent him sailing, the basement nuked ( lotta punch) and hordes of red lights responding...

the irony at the time being that no certification need be had for any NFPA 54 activity, yet hairdressers were required licensure....

the moral? if you don't know your S***, you should not be attempting it.

as yet i've not uncovered any hairdresser related mass casualties......maybe head lice qualifies?

I don't understand why all there is such an NEC focus on residential codes, yet an inversely reciprocal approach to enforcement.

It is soooo contradictory to all those who preach safety, and very frustrating to those who would invest thier time and effort in good tradesmanship & solid business practices, only to be outbid by a carpenter's helper!

To this end, the examples in the photo sections here are lame by comparisson, come on up for the weekend ( beers on me, yer gonna need a few) & i'll curl your hair without ever layin' a hand on you.

where's the asprin....

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 03-02-2002).]

Laguna Beach, CA has a policy that I think's at least a step in the right direction.
Homeowners are allowed to pull a permit to do their own electrical work only after passing an "Owner-Builder" test. Although the test is not too difficult, it weeds out some of the total nit-wits (who probably go home and do the work anyway, sans permit).

I actually had the opportunity to pin down the City of Dallas Chief Electrical Code Inspector on this very issue. (a)must pass a written or verbal test demonstrating knowledge and proficiency to the satisfaction of the Chief Electrical Inspector, (b)owner must actually HOMESTEAD the residence in question, (c)must apply for and secure a permit, (d)must be inspected upon completion.

Even myself, a licensed electrician and owner of a couple of additional rental houses, must comply (with the exception of (a)in my case).

[This message has been edited by 3rd degree Burns (edited 03-02-2002).]