Can He Do That? What is the Law where you are?

This is probably a good thing to bring up once in awhile so that everyone knows what their rights and options are. I figured We could use a recent Email Inquiry as a base situation. It would also be interesting to hear from locations outside the US as to laws concerning this.

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I am making an enquiry on behalf of my mother whom is a Chairperson of a Community Based Marae in NZ
My mother answered a knock at her door from a Plumber whom had been employed by a previous contractor to do work at the Marae -He had not recieved any payment/s for work and materials supplied and completed on the above premises, was therefore handing his account to the Marae of concern.
My mother was told that if the marae did not meet with the invoice/costs that he would than come onto the property and remove all materials and work completed.
My mums concern is:
* Can this contractor do this -as he was not employed or approached by any of the marae committee members
* Whose responsibilty is it to pay for his costs
(The contractor whom employed him or the Marae)
Please can you send me Legal information regarding the above - as my mum and i are females and not aware of any Building Contracts or Liabilities

Looking forward to your speedy reply

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 02-22-2002).]

Once the material is attached to the building, it no longer belongs to the plumber, if he tries to remove it, he could be charged with trespassing at the minimum and theft (ironic ain't it) at the maximum.

It is the property owners responsibility to pay the plumber. The plumber should protect his rights by placing a lien on the property. The property owner must pay the plumber, even if the general contractor has alredy been paid for the job. This is why it is important for property owners to obtain waivers of lien from all persons involved in a construction project.

Of course, this just applies in the Mountain State.

Tom

Tom's right.

It may even be called 'theft of utilities' in some locale's.
As much as the spirit moves a contractor, we can no more threaten this than a horse's head under the bed........ [Linked Image]

What is Marae if I may ask

Here's some information I found on a Website about New Zealand. (The Mäori are the indigenous population of New Zealand it says)

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Marae

The marae is the focal point of the Mäori community. It is a communal meeting place, which is considered to be the centre of Mäori development. The marae complex generally includes a Whare Tipuna (Meeting House) and Whare Kai (Dining Hall), and may also include other buildings such as a church and administration offices.

They can apparently also have Homes attached to them.

Ok How many of us here are well versed on New Zealand law? Maybe it is ok for the plumber to play repo man there. Cant say the thought has never crossed my mind [Linked Image]

Electricmanscott,

I meant for the topic to be discussed in general terms. But, you never know, We do get visitors from New Zealand that may be able to give specific details on their Laws.

Bill

Bill, I am sory if I came across as a smartass, I certainly didn't mean to be. It is a very good subject as I have a dozen or so recessed lights I would like to retreive!

Electricman,

No offense taken, I'm sure that others were wondering why it was brought up here too. I had already written them saying that they should inquire locally, but decided to post the question anyway so that they might be aware of how this situation is viewed or handled elsewhere. I think that there are many that visit here that would like to know what their options are and how others handle this situation

Bill

Hi Bill,

I know this thread's probably long forgotten by now, but as you mentioned being interested in the position outside the U.S. here's my 2 cents.....

The law here in England is pretty much the same as Tom outlined. Once apparatus has been installed it is considered to be part of the building, and cannot be removed without the owner's permission. Perverse as it may sound, one could technically be charged with "criminal damage" for attempting to recover fittings in this way.

The only legal recourse is to take the matter to court. That means paying court application fees, etc., woth no guarantee of getting anything back at the end of it all.

From personal experience as a consumer - here in MO - Tom's comments hold true.

If the contractor did not pay for materials then the homeowner is liable. The sub or supplier (as is often the case) can put a lien on the property and that is all they can do.

Again, just like Tom said here in MO it is a very good idea to get the waivers from the subs and suppliers.

What would be interesting is to know why this law works this way. Could be that at one time homeowners and contractors were scheming to cheat the subs?

Or maybe it was just the contractors and the lawmakers determined that shifting liability to the homeowner would force them keep contractor honest.

Just reading back through some older threads and this one really struck me as rather strange.
That plumber really sounds like a dodgy sort of character.
You wouldn't get away with that here!. [Linked Image]

I seem to remember from law class that the same apply in Sweden. Perhaps this is more or less universal. At least here it is easy to hand the case to the (state) enforcement and get them to extract the money.

From Tom:

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Of course, this just applies in the Mountain State

...and California [Linked Image]

Wow,
You guys have Marae's in CA as well?.

Hey Trunpy,
What exactly is a Marae? The above def was lacking. Also, what is the law down there?

Gidday there EE!. [Linked Image]

Pretty much, a Marae is the central point of all Maori community activities.
It is built on a site called a Pa.
The Marae is used for greeting guests to the Pa, (called a Pohiri), community meetings (called a Hui) and also for funerals (called a Tangi).
The Marae is a very traditional place and there are a lot of rules and protocols to be followed while "on" the Marae.
But, I could go on for ever and send everyone to sleep.
However, the laws here, with regard to this situation with the plumber not being paid and returning to repossess the equipment, would make the plumber liable to tresspassing and theft charges, as it is the guy that he was formerly employed by that he should be seeing about payment.
Besides, what would ripping all the work out solve anyway?. Duh!! [Linked Image]

Also from what I understand, which is not much, the Mäori men are known to be a bit on the violent side. There culture was once a Warrior based until european colonization, with great pride taken at feeling no pain, and usually very large men who enjoyed a physical challange. I was Stationed in the US military with one, he was not one to be messed with. 6'5" 300lbs, and hands about the sized of bowling balls. The Plumber might have a harder time trying to extract anything if men were involved, or wouldn't bother to try. Just my opinion... Reguardless, the Plumber should be going after the one who hired him.

Each state here in the US has slightly different rules for filing leins so we should all know what those rules are in our area. In Maryland you have 180 days to file a lein, but if you are working through a general contractor and have no contract directly with the homeowner, you only have 120 days to notify the owner you are going to file a lein. If the contractor has already been paid you are SOL here.