ECN Forum
Posted By: thiggy Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 02:59 AM
I just read a brief article in The Family Handyman about small press-in wire connectors which are used in place of wire nuts. The illustration shows them with 2, 3, 4 and 5 holes for various applications. Knowing the problems caused by 'back-stabbed' connections in switches and recepticals, I was just wondering how the profession feels about this type of connector. Are they considered to be safe and reliable? On a related note, in a visit to Germany, I observed that most fixture connections are made with screw-in terminal blocks. This seems to be a very practical and secure method for making connections.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 03:23 AM
Various connectors ... Wago, In-Sure, etc ... are available. They seem to be much more reliable than the "back-stab" connections on receptacles. hey actually seem to be working in the 'real' world.

A couple of cautions, though:
- All of these connectors need clean, straight wires in order to make a good connection (no 'used' scored and twisted wire, please!); and,
- Most of these connectors have no way to remove the wires, short of destroying the connector.
Posted By: 1000BaseT Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 04:10 AM
There is no scientific evidence to suggest that back stabbed receptacles are any more prone to failure than side wired. In my career I have replaced hundreds of faulty receptacles and the vast majority were side wired.

It's an urban legend perpetuated by electricians. They would not bear the UL listing label if the backstabbing feature were not safe and effective.

To hear people talk, you'd think that all guys do all day is replace faulty back stabbed receptacles, but everything in our trade goes bad and needs replacing, breakers, fixtures, etc.

As for Wagos and other connectors, I use them but not on the neutrals of multiwire circuits.

No use tempting fate...


[This message has been edited by 1000BaseT (edited 01-19-2007).]
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 04:19 AM
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There is no scientific evidence to suggest that back stabbed receptacles are any more prone to failure than side wired.


Oh boy, here we go again...
Posted By: iwire Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 12:41 PM
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It's an urban legend perpetuated by electricians. They would not bear the UL listing label if the backstabbing feature were not safe and effective.

So UL limited backstabbing devices to 14 AWG based only on an urban legend?

I think not....

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As for Wagos and other connectors, I use them but not on the neutrals of multiwire circuits.

That is a puzzler, you feel they are good enough to use but not good enough to use.

I consider all my splices to be of equal importance.
Posted By: 1000BaseT Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 01:42 PM
Some splices *are* more important than others. It's easy to see when you think about the consequences of a splice failure. I am so paranoid about open neutrals on 3 wire circuits, I should probably start soldering those.

Are 'stabbed connections as good as side wired? No, but they're good enough. "Good enough" is what most jobs are about anyway. It's ironic to note that the "Stabbed vs. Side Wired" debate nearly always occurs on jobs wired with Romex. People get so fixated on the quality of their connections, they forget about the total quality of the job, otherwise they would've installed Flex.

It's like buying a Yugo and arguing about the quality of the radiator cap.

I wire a lot of houses where the only reason I'm there was I was the lowest bid. On these jobs, I use the cheapest materials and fastest wiring techniques I can. I sometimes get these jobs because I'm $50 cheaper than the other guy. On a 2000' house, sidewiring adds at least an hour to the job. Believe it or not, I just can't afford that extra hour. The customer will not pay for it and I don't work for free, so backstabbing it is.

I do my fair share of custom homes. Really nice, upscale homes where the customer expects and can afford a higher level of quality. On these projects I sidewire and use fewer receptacles per circuit and a host of other things because the customer is paying for them.
Posted By: trollog Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 02:39 PM
I have no problem with these clips to connect a device in the makeup box of, say, a can light which at most will only sap 90 watts off the circuit, but in place of wirenuts? I think I'll stick with strip & twist. Not sure I would trust those things with 15 or 20 amps. Inside makeup boxes they actually save time and reaching for more than just wire strippers, so long as you are just shoving solid wire in, otherwise- *snip*
Posted By: trollog Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 02:53 PM
I also noticed those orderly, neat little terminal blocks in Germany when I lived there. While they are quite novel, I don't think they'de be as practical as wirenuts, since they only accept at most, a 12 wire- and that would be a tight squeeze, they might be good for light fixtures, etc (which was where I saw them used mostly) but as soon as you are dealing with more than 1 wire in and 1 wire out per block, the usefulness of these things disappears. You couldn't, for example have power coming in to a box, tied to a wire continuing the circuit to another box, and a tail out for whatever device would occupy the box. Any solution you could come up with to accomplish this would take four times the space to realize, compared to a simple wirenut and then there is the issue of making sure those little screws are adequately tight everywhere they are used... And who wants to twirl a screwdriver that small all day? I was really impressed at the novelty of these little blocks myself but after thinking about it a while I understood why they never made much of a splash over here. You can find them in supply houses too.. I believe Ideal makes them or imports them or whatever. An application where I do think these things would shine is automotive DC wiring, or wiring inside any machine cabinet where neatness and tidyness of the wiring was important, the wires were small and circuits were simple, i.e. not requiring many wires to get the job done
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 03:28 PM
Those "Euro blocks" are nice for that big J box you end up with when you do a service upgrade and the wires are too short.
Posted By: Zapped Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 03:37 PM
Just to (eh hmm) break from the back-stap controversy for a moment - the stab-in wire junctions are in common use in a number of recessed can lights - they come already placed on the can wiring in the make-up box.

I've had zero problems with them in that particular application.

Removal is not so difficult, once you know the trick (this also works with old back-stabbed recepticles). The trick is to hold the wire firmly while twisting the device (recepticle or wire junction block) side to side and pulling (some force is needed). This sort of "unscrews" the wire from the lock-in tab. This also seems to retain the holding properties of the lock-in tab for re-use.

Stranded wire presents difficulties, unless it's tinned like the can light leads are.

I'm up for trying any device that saves time and presents no comprimise to the quality and longevity of my work.
Posted By: Tom H Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 03:54 PM
I have used them frequently on light fixtures, espically in commercial installs where i've wired 200+ 2x4 fixtures. I use them now in my own business, however I have to agree with 1000BaseT, it is a hard conceptual leap to make a splice you know is going to carry a large current or a 3 wire neutral and not see the splice is nice and tight.

I'm sure I'll cross that hurdle at some point, but for now I use them on fixtures and low load splices.
Posted By: thiggy Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 04:23 PM
I didn't realize that I would open such a can of worms with my question, but I appreciate all of the interesting (and informative)comments.
Posted By: iwire Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 04:33 PM
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Some splices *are* more important than others. It's easy to see when you think about the consequences of a splice failure. I am so paranoid about open neutrals on 3 wire circuits, I should probably start soldering those.

Yes, the splices leading to an oxygen pump are more important than the ones heading to a video game.

But I will not agree that the common neutral of a is any more or less important than the hots.

A break in either is an unhappy customer and a call back.

Just because a neutral opens in a MWBC does not mean full line to line voltage will be applied to the equipment.

I have fixed open neutral that did not damage any equipment and I have fixed open neutrals that did 'zap' equipment. It depends on the circuit loading conditions.

I will probably end up using the push on connectors for more things as time goes buy out of nessity....it does not mean I really like them.
Posted By: LK Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 08:42 PM
Shhhhh! Back stabs are great, if they stopped using them, a large percent of our service calls would dry up.
This week was a good example of the wonders of back-stabs, as soon as the tempeture snaps, the calls start comming in.

"I will probably end up using the push on connectors for more things as time goes buy out of nessity....it does not mean I really like them."

Same here Bob, i have used them for ballast replacement connections, but on a down stream circuit, with unknown loads, don't think i like it.




[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-20-2007).]
Posted By: NJI Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 09:19 PM
I've been using them since they came out ! although i do use more wire nuts than anything else on small connections(two wire) were i've had best experience with these is four or more wires.. eg.. old work when trying to clean up junction boxes. big splices just aren't that doable. I've used a pile of those six block connectors. best thing since sliced bread. no call backs on anything i've used them on.

i'm buyin... and they'r rated for 20 amps !!!
Posted By: makokiller Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 09:22 PM
I LOVE USING WAGO'S THEY ARE HANDY TO HAVE IN THE VAN FOR THOSE TIGHT SPOTS WHERE THE GUY BEFORE YOU DID NOT LEAVE ENOUGH WIRE HANGING OUT OF THE BOX.. ALSO THE BACKSTAB DEAL, IN THE 20 YEARS THAT I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS STUFF I HAVE ONLY REPLACED 1 RECP THAT WAS BAD TO A BACKSTAB, AND THEN I BACKSTABED IT AGAIN... AND 1000BASET LOVE TO FLY TO, DO YOU RUN SINGLE ENGINE??
Posted By: electure Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 09:54 PM
I've taken some apart, and the "dull (unsprung) side" is only about 1/16" wide.
They're great for ballast changouts, and fantastic for capping off unused wires.
I'll stick with wirenuts and a nice length of copper to copper connection otherwise [Linked Image].
Posted By: LK Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 10:18 PM
Ok, I did a search of workorders, (Recpt. not working in some rooms) I was not able to go back 20 years, but i have 14 years, there were 237 calls, 235 were for back stab problems, one was for cracked recpt, face and another for side wiring loose.

Could it be your not getting call backs, because the customers are calling another EC for the repairs?
Posted By: makokiller Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 10:40 PM
COULD IT BE YOU WERE USING RECPS MADE IN CHINA NOT THE USA?? SOUNDS LIKE ALOT OF CALL BACKS TO ME..
Posted By: LK Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 10:50 PM
What call backs, none of them were our work! These are service calls we made.
I would never consider using them, I like my customers.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-20-2007).]
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 11:02 PM
I've never used these 'Wago' connectors. I also never realized that's what they were called. To me, if it's not broke don't fix it. Making up a good splice is what seperates professionals from the amateurs and I certainly consider myself a professional.

As far as the stab-locks go... well, lets just say I prefer to not use them. I understand that they're UL approved. Big deal. They come lose over time especially in a room with a wooden floor with a 6-year old jumping all over the place. The better install BY FAR is to secure the wire to the terminal.
Posted By: makokiller Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 11:15 PM
YEAH I GUESS IT IS UP TO THE GUY PUTTING IN THE STUFF, EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT, JUST LIKE SOME PEOPLE LIKE THE UNIONS, AND OTHERS DONT.

[This message has been edited by makokiller (edited 01-20-2007).]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 11:27 PM
Just to further muddy the water....

Wago (the name of the manufacturer) is now making a similar type connector that has little levers to grip the wires. That is, you can actually remove wires .. a real plus!

I agree that these things (both types) really shine when there are more than four wires to connect, or when the wires are of differing sizes.

BTW, please do not post using all caps! All caps is a lot harder to read.

As far as receptacle connections are concerned, most of the "back stab" failures I've seen have had lots of problems somewhere inside the device. For example, the two receptacles will give different readings on a plug-in tester. I cannot say this is the fault of the 'back-stab,' and might actually be caused by something else inside the POS device. At least, when you use the screws you eliminate the inside device from the list of things that can go wrong.
Posted By: makokiller Re: Press On Connectors - 01/20/07 11:43 PM
Yea,I have used the ones with the little levers they are really cool [Linked Image]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Press On Connectors - 01/21/07 12:24 AM
European Terminal or "choc blocks" go right up in size to at least 60A. In my brico there are blocks of many sizes which will take up to 5/16" [8mm] solid wire. Actually they are all a PITA - trying to manipulate the wires into the hole, line up the block with all your other wiring fighting back, getting the screwdriver aligned, avoid the wires on either side and always worrying "is it tight?" , and then trying to make an orderly safe assembly in the box without ramming it all in like a bird's nest, which means big junction boxes. Worse is when one side of the brass screw slot decides to shear off just as you give it that extra 'just to be sure' tweak- now you can't undo it either!

Alan
Posted By: Elviscat Re: Press On Connectors - 01/21/07 07:40 AM
I actually have a genuine european splice block sitting on my desk, they do look like a real PITA to use though, I think wirenuts are a lot easier than these things (I made a couple test splices with 'em)

we use the Ideal In-Sures pretty regularly) although the tan twisters are our conector of choice) and I have seen one fail, accidentaly shorted a hot to ground, no tripped breaker, 120V L-N, 0V L-G huh? we started opening boxes, and found a blackend 6-hole on some grounds up-stream, looked like a good connection on all the grounds... hmm, still great for relativley low-current aplications,

edited to add: yes, please no caps, please no caps, please no caps, so annoying to read.
IMO
-Will

[This message has been edited by Elviscat (edited 01-21-2007).]
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