Well - its Day one of the mandatory certification requirement - anyone get busted yet?

Not me!... Oh wait.. Ummm I passed

I did notice that the newspaper had no advertisements for electricians that didn't mention certification.

That only lasted for a couple of days though. Business is back to usual.

Over on another forum theres a gent claiming that they are still taking applications to test. http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=82649
Post #25

And a new law went and slipped in there on us, but to date nothing out of the DAS on it yet.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/05-06/bill/asm/ab_2901-2950/ab_2907_bill_20060930_chaptered.pdf

Now if everyone could read carefully.... Residential and General deadline 1-1-07, but resi might (at thier whim) be extended to 2009....

Oh I forgot this..... (Scanning for more changes.)


It seems the DAS forgot it too....


It's been in the law for a long long time - it's just so easy to forget it's there...

There is no penalty for electricians working without certification. No penalty whatsoever. The FAQ section at the DAS website says this in no uncertain terms.

This is like the Y2K scare, forget about it and move on...

"This is like the Y2K scare, forget about it and move on..."

What does Y2K have to do with the enforcement of electrical contracting regulations and laws?

Forget about what, the effort to regulate an industry, and bring it up to a professional level?

Test, and examine applicants for a level knowledge in the trade?

Leave the consumers exposed to contractors that can't meet the standards.

I had some questions answered regarding Fire Life Safety Certification. Pay special note to question 4. It would seem to me the that the state would set the hierarchy of Certification, but what do I know. These responses are official state responses. I don't know how to bold or italisize this stuff, so I hope you can differentiate between the questions and answers without too much trouble. I quote:

1) I have a City Inspector office asking if the deadline for FLS is going to be extended?

There are no further extensions for FLS.

2) A General Contractor is trying to put a system in place to watch dog their subs that install the FLS but needs to know if the January 1, 2007 is going to hold true?

Yes, January 1, 2007 all electricians working for a C10 contractor must be certified.

3) The other question the GC had is if they find uncertified FLS and turn them in to DAS/ECU will anythng happen to the person and the company as of today?

We do not have Enforcement at the State level. However, we would like to know information as to who these people are if they are working without being certified. And on our website this is the information we request: The individual who is not certified will be considered illegally working. By January 2007 all electricians working for a C10 contractor must be certified. If certification is not valid and there is fraud, please submit in writing the following information for review.

- Complainant’s name

- Date of Complaint

- The name of the person they are complaining about

- Type of Complaint

- The complaint stated in detail

- If the Complainant knows who the person’s employer is

- What classification is that person working as(General Electrician, Residential, Fire/Life Safety, VDV, NRLT)

- Address (if any)

- Phone # (if any)

- If the person is still employed

4) The last question is if an Electrician took the "General Electrician" (GE) test and passed can that individual work FLS installations and be covered by the GE certification.

This depends on the employer to determine what type of certification is required to do the job. Some employers may require a specialized certificate from the individual verses a general one.

Nice.
I've run a little FA conduit before, have
never installed a Fire Alarm System in my life, & truly know very little about them...

Now CERTIFIED as a journeyman to go tear into any alarm system in the State, if an employer says it's OK.

I've reached a new level of incompetence.

Quote by LK "Forget about what, the effort to regulate an industry, and bring it up to a professional level?"

I can't have a reasonable debate with someone who believes our industry needs more regulation or that our industry is not a profession.

As a free thinker, I learned a long time ago that you can never win an argument with someone who believes more government will solve our problems.

LK, are you a C-10 licensed contractor in California?

Sandsnow, I agree the answer is pretty vague - "General" covers anything under the NEC according to their description of that classification... But I think they may have meant "NICET Certification" or equal in addition to 'Their' certification - required only by the employer or job specifications.... ???????

Scott, I'm in the same boat on FA - Run loads of conduit for it, but also have under instruction installed a number of them. Spec's, design, setting and programing by people who knew what they were doing... (They call it "Parts and Smarts"....)

1000BaseT,
I agree that further regulation is not totally necessary, as an 'ideal' that it was promoted as, it had some merit, that many other states enjoy.... However due to the effect of politics this and related laws it's a 'railroad' IMO. Benefiting some at the expense of others. (Big Union/Merit shops vs. Small 2-3 employee shops who'll be forced to associate with one or the other, that wouldn't have to otherwise.) It ties to Prevailing Wage, Public Works qualification, approval of training programs etc. The later effects us all down the line, because geographically you may be limited in where, or who by, your labor gets trained, or maintained through "continuing education". So from either side of the Union/Merit line, either company may have to pay more to attract employees from further away for their particular flavor of labor.

There are to the contrary, some penalties for both employer, and employee, they may not seem significant but on an individual, or company level could be harsh if caught with uncertified labor or working uncertified.

Employee:
Barred from taking test for 5 years. (the term of his new apprenticeship if he can get in one) During that time, could not work unsupervised and there for his value as an employee is diminished, which could mean loss of job or pay scale...

Employer:
Could be barred for employing apprentices or trainees, which would mean they would have to pay Journey level wages for all employees, and have a harder time getting them as that pool of labor dries up. i.e. Higher operating costs....

Also, as a small shop... You could hire a "Helper"... But in the long run that will be both a dis-service to the employee, as any experience gained would be invalid... And limit your companies contracting and growth possibilities.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-10-2007).]

"I can't have a reasonable debate with someone who believes our industry needs more regulation or that our industry is not a profession."

The industry will not be a profession, if you move on and ignor the issues of enforcement, to bring it up to a professional level, you need the certifications, and exams, to show the applicants skill level, and you need the enforcement to keep it at a professional level.

e57, you make some good points, but as you know, here in California, there will be no enforcement of this or any other rule.

I mean, for pete's sake, you no longer even need a contractor's license in California. I can't remember when the last time I worked on a job that did not have at least 1 unlicensed contractor working on it.

The CSLB stopped going after unlicensed contractors years ago. Anybody look at CraigsList lately?

The INS does not enforce the immigration laws.

How is the state going to enforce this law when they can't even be bothered to chase down unlicensed contractors or illegal aliens?

How does this law benefit the public anyway? We already have our work inspected by the government. By the way, the test is very easy, its just an open book code test. It doesn't set any kind of standard. Hardly anything to crow about.

I agree with LK. Just look at other construction professional trades today.

LK we did just fine without it for the last 100+ years by having Inspectors come by jobsites to roll a thumb up or down.... Inspectors have gone down hill in many areas IMO, and even licensed persons not getting inspected is more of an issue outside of unlicensed handymen or other trades jumping in to do the work because we are looked at as too expensive.....

1000BaseT, lets leave citizenship out of the discussion... It's not relivant at all! There are plenty of people born and raised here who do not follow laws of any kind... Many of those unlicensed contractors were born and raised right here in the USA. And not being licensed is LEGAL to the point of $500 or less. (Total project cost) And just as a reminder it is ILLEGAL to associate with unlicensed contractors in this State if it constitutes "Aiding or Abetting"

The CSLB does have a healthy list of people they bust every 3 month on the back of every newsletter from violations ranging from fraud to not having the right font in contracts..... And go on and on about sting operations they do. And you can report anyone you like, and they do go after them. http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/hotleadref.pdf


I feel the same way about it.... The only thing it proves is that you can read.... It does not mean you understand any of it...

Anyone find any place offering continuing ed yet? I found one today.... Almost $700

Web-based... I did not think that was allowed?

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-10-2007).]

I see a few things in the laws that need to be changed before anything works.

1) The testing, has to include a knowledge section, along with the open book code.

2) The $500 threshold for work requiring a license, is just "NUTS" (That says you only protect the consumer when the job is over $500) I would love to meet the person that thought that one up, public safety?

3) The Independent Contractors State wide need a say in the lawmaking process.

4) No permits should be issued, without a signed, and sealed permit for every job, requiring a permit.

Guys get together, there is strength in numbers, let the lawmakers know your not happy campers, if they don't hear from you, then they will listen to Mr Nuts.






[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-10-2007).]

"Anyone find any place offering continuing ed yet? I found one today.... Almost $700"

I've found two.

WECA $275/quarter

ABC $110/month

Both told me that they are having trouble filling their classes. Seems odd to me...

"I mean, for pete's sake, you no longer even need a contractor's license in California. I can't remember when the last time I worked on a job that did not have at least 1 unlicensed contractor working on it."

From what I can tell (and the way it's setup is a gawdawful mess), the CSLB has nothing to do with the certification program. It's the "Division of Apprenticeship Standards" - accountable it seems, to no one.

stevecheyenne,
The one I found was the ABC one.... (I think) http://www.abcsd.org/user-assets/Documents/Training%20Flyers/sbcRecrtyr.pdf

I'm noting you're mentioning month and quarter pricing - are we on the same thing???? For the continuing edu hours, or is that pricing for ET or Apprentice?

And IMO the DAS is in a parrelel universe.... Or somewhere on the other side of the 'Stargate'....

You're right. The prices I got were for ET, which is not the same as continuing ed, and neither is the same as apprentice.

If it sounds like I'm getting confused as to how this all is supposed to work, it's because I am.

You are NOT ALONE......

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm gonna wait awhile for my CEUs.
The places that they are available presently have politics based agendas and are too busy trying to one-up-the-other-guy for my liking.
Maybe the CEUs will be offered in colleges, like the app education was (when finally accredited).
After all it's SUPPOSED to be about education, isn't it?

LK's right. We really need an big organization of the "legit little guys" to get this thing on track. It's out of control.

e57 suggested earlier that maybe I was enraged. I'm not. Outraged, maybe. Disappointed, Disenchanted, Disgusted, absolutely.
At one time I thought this would be a great idea.....That an educated workforce would raise quality and safety, both for us and the consumer.
All it did was enable the hacks to hack, and the day laborer to do electrical work while leaving the small legit guys holding the bag.

BTW, I did hear rumor of a contractor being fined $32K on a public works project for employing noncertified electricians.

Welcome to you Steve. Another OC local

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-11-2007).]

I'll speak for myself I guess now... I'm 'RAGED!


It's gonna come down to this.... Letter writing... Gotta get out all the ill will and sent it to Sacremento. Squeaky wheels so they say.... I'll even write one as Jack I.T. Box! (Just to get the computerized responce letter)

Find your rep's and let them have it... http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/yourleg.html http://gov.ca.gov/site/contact-governor

As stevecheyenne mentioned, it doesn't seem these people are accountable to anyone - maybe they should be....

"The places that they are available presently have politics based agendas and are too busy trying to one-up-the-other-guy for my liking."

I feel the same way, not looking to join the ABC, JATC/IBEW, or WECA. City College down the road would be great... And apparently cheaper if they offered anything.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-11-2007).]

Thanks for the welcome!

"City College down the road would be great... And apparently cheaper if they offered anything."

The last time I checked, the courses available at the community colleges were open to union members only.

Was I happy to learn that?

No, I was not.

[This message has been edited by stevecheyenne (edited 01-11-2007).]

I have noticed that both union and merit are operating thier own courses out of community and junior colleges. And likewise in one case a college (Foothill) operating its program out of a JATC...
http://www.dir.ca.gov/das/ListOfApprovedSchoolsDetail.html#101

Anyway.... I would PM this, but it goes the same for us all....

stevecheyenne, As a new member... (Welcome aboard BTW) We are in the 'orange zone' here on the "political" arena of discussions involving Union/Merit issues. Although it is nearly impossible to talk about this issue without talking about the politics, because it is steeped in it. But we do need to be carefull about not promoting or diminishing one over the other, even though as I can see through this thread in particular many of us are not affiliated with either politicaly.... We're just dealing in issues of the often 'tabboo' entities that we often try to avoid. For purposes of remaining cival, and to avoid chest beating.... Otherwise it turns into Beirut....

Yup - been there on other forums. No problem - I have no quarrel with the union.

The Community College District, on the other hand...

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, attending IAEI meetings and seminars will get you CEU credits. Some of them for free.

I note the IAEI chapter here is also listing seminars in areas besides electrical for ICC purposes. I wonder if these will be applicable to the CEU's required for electricians? I hope so; we all need to know something about the general building code, the fire code, the HVAC stuff.....

A little info here:

The state that requires all apprenticeship programs to be affiliated with a community college.

Here in OC, JATC operates with Rancho and ABC with Cerritos.

Electrical Trainee: A person taking classes in order to keep working without a certification card.

Lack of enforcement aside; the rules are you must have a cert. card or be enrolled in an approved training class in order to keep working. At least to be in compliance.

Reno we gotta be carefull here, as the DAS in our State is very particular in what they will accept. Essentialy if they are not getting some sort of "Contribution" (MONEY) to the DAS coffers from an organization they won't be acceptable.....

Sandsnow, I did not know that about Community Colleges affiliation being required... I know the Colleges had some heavy gripes over the last few years with this law. (Some of thier meeting minutes were all over the internet a while back - interesting reading.)

Does that mean that my crew men who are not certified can take the required ET courses at Rancho or Cerritos? Or are only the apprenticeship classes offered? Are either/both offered to union and non-union employees? (I've called one or two CCs and have found it nearly impossible to get a straight story).

What's the difference between the two courses of study, ET and apprentice? What would be the advantage of having them take ET classes vs. apprenticeship classes?

Thanks!

From what I have been told, both the JATC and ABC in OC are approved for ET classes. I don't know any more about the JATC classes, but ABC offers classes to anyone. There is a different price for members and non-members (if you work for a member contractor).

In either situation you don't take classes from the CC, you take them from the JATC or ABC. The CC is more like sponsor to the JATC or ABC.

To take apprenticeship classes, your crew would have to apply, be accepted and then would not be working for you.

To keep them legal, they would need to enroll in ET classes.

There's a loophole in the rules in that if you try to enroll and there are no classes available, you are exempt from certification until such time as classes open up. There is paper work to be filed.

Same loophole if you live more than a certain mile radius from the closest classes.

I was under the (wrong) impression that the college courses were an alternative to JATC or ABC classes.
Thanks, Sandsnow for the true skinny. Finding this info out should be a breeze and be READILY available someplace but it's not (and I've been looking for it).
This could become problematic. If a guy or gal doesn't know where to go for the CEUs, how will they find out.
The whole thing's got to be understandable by the dimmest sheep in the flock.

Even for the [yogi]'smarter than the average'[/yogi] sheep we are it seems to be a problem....

I generally catch on pretty quick but I'm still not getting how the program works. I hope you'll bear with me - I can't seem to find this info anywhere else.


WECA also told me that their courses were approved but they offer only a few clases in the OC. They mainly work in San Diego and Sac'to. Is there place to check to see if a particular course is approved?


That squares with what they told me.


I was told that this used to be so, but no longer is. The ABC lady told me I had to join if I wanted my crew to enroll in their classes, and brother it ain't cheap. WECA had no such requirement (but we're not through the enrollment process yet, either).


Which would explain why, when you call a CC, no one has any idea of what you're talking about. I get it.


I don't understand what you are saying here. Why wouldn't they be working for me?


At the same time as they are taking the apprenticeship classes? Or are apprenticeship classes available only to union members? (Don't care if they are, just want to know).


Not a prob in the OC; both WECA and ABC told me that they are having trouble filling their classes. I find this astounding, given the number of people working as electricians in the county, and the relatively low percentage of certified electricians.

I had thought we were late coming in, but it looks as though we may actually be early-adopters.

have you checked this out? http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm#PageTop

You should be asking the provider if a class is approved. e57 published a link to a list of approved schools.

If a person enrolls in an apprenticeship program they go where they are dispatched. If you were to join either org. then they could be working for you.

Both ABC and JATC offer apprenticeship classes. An apprentice does not have to be certified but he does have to work under a certified electrician.

I don't know about WECA, ABC So Cal is turning people away from their trainee classes because they are full.

You're darn tootin' we are! My card is expired since June - I took the test 3 1/2 years ago!!!!!!

The difference (or one of the main ones) in an "Apprentice" and "Electrician Trainee" (APP and ET for short) is that an apprentice will be dispatched by thier training organization to various employers. The idea is for them to "experiance various working environments" under various employers... And you, as an EC get to "Contribute" in $$$$ to the organization that trains them, who in turn "Contribute" that money (Less mark-up of course) to the DAS coffers....

An ET is YOUR employee who is attending classes, and is registered with the DAS in order to work "by law" if you can call it that.... As it is your employees education, he/she is can do it totaly on thier own accord. A former employer of mine was gracious enough to pay half for a former underling of mine last year, a dicission I think she was regretting, and allowed him to get off early a few days a week to spend two hours in traffic to go to Hayward 60 miles away for his classes. (Our shop was two blocks away from the the JATC that this guy lived not far from that has a 5 year *+ waiting list! That you can now attend through Foothill College as an ET.)

But really, it is the DAS that is too late in all this. They should have sorted out all this crap years ago, and stream lined the whole process. Something I believe they are purposely reluctant to do. I don't think they want to bring any more attention to themselves by having EVERY electrician on thier backs, they have enough problems trying to deal with the 1/2 population that they have now. I have been to thier offices here in SF, I have talked to a few on the phone, and even attended some of thier early meetings that they were so house proud about. I'll tell you that now, they are just frightened blind pilots of a machine they have little or no understanding of. Even though it is a machine they built, or should I say half built and trying to fly.

Call thier offices directly, and get a "Person" on the phone, they'll try to put you off to the web site for information - but push it... They don't even know what it says on that site of thiers half the time, and can clarify little else past what it says, or tell you where this death ride is headed - because they just don't know.....
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/das_offices.htm



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-13-2007).]

The program is disorganized, but I'm a pragmatist.

I'm all for anything that makes a member of my crew a better electrician and helps to improve his life. I've had several go on to start their own businesses and they did so with both my encouragement and my blessing. I'm paying 1/2 for the ET classes, and I believe it's going to be money well spent.

There are two advantages to helping my crew get ahead like this. The first is that with additional training each man will do better work in the name of my company. The second is that if I were to become ill or find myself in a jam, I could have 5 crews taking care of my workload tomorrow, at cost, with little more required than a phone call.

Life is good.

[This message has been edited by stevecheyenne (edited 01-14-2007).]