ECN Forum
Posted By: Grover Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 05:25 PM
A man's dream house becomes a high-voltage nightmare. WLNE's Elyce Kirchner explains (December 29) - North Attleboro, MA

Picked up this video clip on CNN.... Anyone konw more about it? Claim is house was permitted and built too close to Hi-voltage lines......
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 05:42 PM
I had not heard about it, although the home is not more than 2 miles from me.

I will look in the local paper.

Here is the link to the story.

Large Video Clip
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 06:19 PM
Sounds like some "pop science" junk deliberately created by an activist, to try to stir the pot!

I don't buy he claim that the house is somehow energised. Guy built it hmself, with his own hands? Thik there might be some "pics for ECN" in there?

He's not that close to the lines.

I don't care that he got apermit ... the PoCo had to sign off on it before they powered him up ... yet, the PoCo here says that they told him NO.

There is something seriously wrong with that story.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 06:55 PM
Interesting story here.

Now.... the magnetic field coming off the transmission lines is energizing metal piping in the house.

Is that right?

AND THIS GUY BUILDS HOMES????

Besides the bulldozer technique, are there any solutions to this guys problem?
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 07:28 PM
If those HV lines are putting out enough EMF to electrify the plumbing in that house, wouldn't at the same time, the wiring in the house pick up this same EMF and play all kinds of havoc with induced voltage? Something here smells of open/corroded/loose poco neutral, & unbalanced current using the plumbing trying to get back to the poco transformer... I'll bet on the difference in potential between the fresh water and the drainline in the shower are why he's getting bit

Waiting on ECN subversive "Iwire"'s report [Linked Image]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:12 PM
"fluourescent bulbs inside the home light up even when they are not plugged in."

Well there is an indication your too close, the news story said he was 30ft, i can light a bulb at 50ft from the ones near us, well not unusual to build close to lines, the property is always cheap, so a bargin is a bargin, but to complain about the power lines being there, is like building at the end of a runway and then being supprised planes fly over your home.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:39 PM
The reporter says the Grid "built the tower too close to the property", implying he was there first.
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:43 PM
Randy.

It's saturday, bob is out moonlighting, but once he finishes his side work. it would be nice if he could get some pic's of him standing near the power lines with a lit lamp!

This just hit the latest news release'

But National Grid shot back yesterday that Zagami, who purchased his Lindsey Street property last year - long after the electric towers were constructed - built his house on its easement and even ran underground water pipes through the easement without first consulting the company.





[This message has been edited by LK (edited 12-30-2006).]
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:46 PM
The media is never wrong. [Linked Image]
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:49 PM
Quote
It's saturday, bob is out moonlighting, but once he finishes his side work. it would be nice if he could get some pic's of him standing near the power lines with a lit lamp!

I only moonlight in NJ to get the ECs up in arms. [Linked Image]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:55 PM
Bob,

Any chance of getting some good pic's ?
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:56 PM
Quote
I only moonlight in NJ to get the ECs up in arms.

No comment.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 08:59 PM
I haven't found the address yet but there are only a few streets with that size transmission lines near them.

I will see what I can do.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 09:01 PM
Wait a minute...

Are you just trying to get me dangerously close to the power lines? [Linked Image]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 09:08 PM
Our GC is now building his new home right next to high tension grid lines, and to make matters worse, he is putting in pool, and even worse yet, he is near the substation, that Mike Holt sent the link out. about stray current.

Here are some updates on the herbertsville sub station problem http://www.google.com/search?q=herbertsville+sub+station&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

Just before this post came up, i was making a copy of the stray report to send to him.



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 12-30-2006).]
Posted By: stamcon Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:03 PM
In the background of the video, there is what appears to be a dark red neighboring house. I wonder what the distance difference, from the wires, the two houses are and if the other house has any issues?

steve
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:18 PM
I found a pic of the guy holding a fluorescent bulb.

here...

[Linked Image from news.bostonherald.com]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:21 PM
Les:
That JCP&L thing dates from late 2003. This summer there was talk about stray voltage again, here in Brick. What I remember from then was something about 'single wire, earth return' in the distribution system. The BPU was on their case to correct it. Linemen that I talk to said something to the effect of 'lacking an upgraded system'.

See ya.

John
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:28 PM
Look at the pic ... then check the video. That wire going between the columns wasn't there before.

Call animal control ... I smell a rat!
Posted By: mahlere Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:37 PM
reno, i think that is a rope.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:44 PM
I feel REALLY BAD for this guy. That has got to be almost the worst feeling in the world. Check out this from one report:

Quote
The building inspector who issued the permit no longer works for the town.
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=174189
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:50 PM
John,

Looks like the build out was poorly planned, or they just decided to save money, either way the consumer pays.

They have a series of problems that are contributing to the stray, poor soil conditions, around the sub station, return path problems, and under built area distribution.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:52 PM
John,

Quote
That wire going between the columns wasn't there before.

It's caution tape.

From the Boston Herald

Quote
The electric currents running through the two-story home are considered so potentially harmful that the town’s fire department has strung “caution” tape around the house while an electrical inspector has refused to issue a final permit out of fear someone might get electrocuted.

I have meet the electrical inspector a few times, he is a good guy. I doubt he is involved in any shenanigans.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/30/06 11:55 PM
OK, Bob ... I will suspend my cyncism for the time being ....
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:01 AM
Quote
just 27 feet from giant overhead 345,000-volt transmission lines owned by National Grid.

Now THATS just ridiculous.... I feel for this guy being out all this $$$$, but someone should've caught this before ground was ever broken... especially if he's building into the poco easement...
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:04 AM
Quote
But National Grid shot back yesterday that Zagami, who purchased his Lindsey Street property last year - long after the electric towers were constructed - built his house on its easement and even ran underground water pipes through the easement without first consulting the company.

“It’s unfortunate that he brought this on himself,” said National Grid spokesman David Graves.

But....

Quote
State officials confirmed yesterday there are no state laws with guidelines on how close homes can be to transmission lines.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:07 AM
Perhaps these stray currents are coming from an underground copper water pipe. But that doesn't explain the currents on doorknobs.
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:27 AM
"someone should've caught this before ground was ever broken... especially if he's building into the poco easement..."

I think that someone left the inspection department in November according to the news report.

In the area i am in, they are not to build anything on the easement, but they do, storage sheads, above ground pools, even extend sun rooms into the right of way, and of course no permits, you don't get permits when your building on a right of way, then they complain when they do work in their right of way, and damage anything.

He can just change the door knobs to glass knobs, insulate to plumbing, and use only A Lamps. [Linked Image]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:27 AM
I am wondering how all that construction took place without the problem being discovered. Whatever is electrifying doorknobs would also electrify scredrivers and power tools, I would think.

I'm curious as to exactly what is 27 ft. from the house. The property line? The wires themselves?

Moreover ... don't those lines "hum?' I didn't hear any on that news tape.

[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 12-30-2006).]
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:35 AM
Wonder if he can get a contractor to move his house out of that enormous emf feild? Maybe the lot his home sits on isn't big enough?
Posted By: ITO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:35 AM
Quote
“Debbie Drew, the spokeswoman, said Zagami built his home on National Grid’s easement and ignored its repeated warning to stop.”

Quote
“I spent everything I had,” said Chris Zagami, who invested up to $70,000 of his own money and took out a $290,000 construction loan to build the 1,700-square-foot home just 27 feet from giant overhead 345,000-volt transmission lines owned by National Grid.

Sorry this story just plain stinks, there is something not right about this.

1) 1,700 square foot home for $360,000? Any he built it himself to boot!!!

2) He built the house on the easement? Either he should fire his surveyor or sue him…unless he did not use one. How do you get a construction loan past the bank, building a house on a utility easement? How do you get a permit past city planning, building on a utility easement?




[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-30-2006).]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:50 AM
"1,700 square foot home for $360,000? Any he built it himself to boot!!!"

The reason it's so cheap for the 1,700sq is because he built it himself.

One up the street from me is just under 1,500sq and it went for 425,000, buyers were fighting to get it.

I have a feeling he was building that home, to put it on market, then when the problems arose, Oh it's my home!
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:00 AM
Searching Lindsey St, N Attleboro, MA on Google maps hybrid shows 3 houses pretty darn close to those HV lines...

Satellite view of house

Click the link and look towards the top of the map..

I wonder if Bob's found this place yet, or if he's still impeding on Les' gravy work in the Garden State [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by Lostazhell (edited 12-30-2006).]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:07 AM
I have a big power line behind my house that I think is one 250kv and a couple at a smaller voltage. I can get some pictures if you want a better guess.
The bottom line is I tried every urban legend anyone could come up with (coils, long wires between the poles, vertical antennas etc). I never got an F40 tube to glow and I was up on the right of way. If I could have made it work it would be lighting my boathouse tonight.

This story sounds like BS to me
Posted By: walrus Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:10 AM
Quote
The reason it's so cheap for the 1,700sq is because he built it himself.

Sounds expensive to me
Posted By: WFO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 03:21 AM
Quote

State officials confirmed yesterday there are no state laws with guidelines on how close homes can be to transmission lines.

Actually, there ARE laws. NERC, the National Electrical Regulatory Commission (excuse me if I got the acronym wrong.....they tend to blend together) has become the de facto enforcement arm of FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission). They will be enforcing transmission line requirements set forth by FERC. One of these (very popular at the moment due to the last big outage in the Northeast) is the mandate to keep the right of way clear under the lines. They aren't worried about this guy because he's the one in violation. The utility will end up getting fined, NOT for this guy getting shocked, but for allowing him to be under the line.

[This message has been edited by WFO (edited 12-30-2006).]
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 03:37 AM
^^
The way I see it happening is the POCO and state will wind up paying this guy his 350k (or the majority of that amount) and that'll be that. If the state wrongly issued him a permit to build there, well then it can hardly be the owners fault for building the house. We will see what happens.
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 04:10 AM
Assuming that the sat photo is recent, then he has to be one of the two houses just below the easement. It appears that both houses are about equally close to the lines. I don't see why it would be a problem for one, and not for the other.
Posted By: electure Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 05:05 AM
There are none of those problems at these places . The tower carries 500KV, and the homes are elevated about 80' above the base of the tower on a hillside.

I'm not buying his story
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:08 AM
Electure,
I find something off-hand about that picture.
Reason I say this is because no Power Company as far as I am aware, would let trees grow, where they could fall onto live lines.
Over here, even with 110kV or 220kV them trees would be cleared way out of the way of them lines.
We do the same things with 33 and 66kV lines.
That picture looks to be Photo-shopped to me.
Anyone else have that feeling?.
Posted By: Elviscat Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:24 AM
Mike, I think that those trees appear to be closer to the lines than they really are, I'm pretty sure it's an opticle illusion, of course it could be an artificial one.

I'm with most of you, I don't buy it at all

edited to add, you can see te sun setting on the far horizon, but those trees aear to be lit up from a light source near the foregroud... hmmm
-Will

[This message has been edited by Elviscat (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:41 AM
Mike,

We do have trees that close, but did anyone notice, there are 2 sets of transmission lines, i must be the only one that thinks it's ligit, lamp should not glow with low Kv, but those lines may be at a much higher level, also they are not on towers, a bit lower then a tower, NY State has some transmission lines, that can make a cow dance 200ft from the lines, farmers did not have happy cows like cal has.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 08:05 AM
Interesting point Les,
Quote
also they are not on towers
345kV gives a lot higher line distance from the ground than is shown in the picture.
One other thing is the span seems wrong, it was either very hot that day when the pic was taken, or the PoCo under-estimated the sag in the double-wire conductors.
Also at any voltage above 66kV, wooden towers and posts become useless.
Un-economic and unsafe.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 09:33 AM
You guys are amazing.

Not one of you has been there but have all the answers.

As far as the press I agree....never believe what they say.

But If I understand you all correctly both the Fire Department and the electrical inspector must be in cahoots with this HO in order to pull a fast one.

I don't pretend to know what is going on but this is no 'hick' town with a volunteer FD. This Town is close to becoming a city and the FD is a very professional full time organization.

On Monday I should have time to check this out in person....doubt I will walk onto this persons property with a lamp but I may be able to get a better picture of the distances.

Let me ask this.

What would be the FDs motivation to close off the building if they did not find something odd?

As to the $300,000 that is high if that is the money spent only on building this home as the press leads us to believe.

In this area that house with it's property should market for about that value.

Bob
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 10:14 AM
If you want to see a good overhead shot of this area go to Google Maps in the search field enter 225 Lindsay Street, 02760 and hit enter.

Once the map comes up look in the upper right and click on Satellite

Once that loads you can pan and zoom at will, you will plainly see the cut for the power lines and if you zoom in you will see both metal towers and large wood towers.

Now, I am not sure how recent the photo is so I don't know if the house in the story is actually in the picture. However you can see how there are no trees over the power lines and how close at least some home are.

At least one set of lines has existed in that cut for many years, however the power company has recently added more sets of lines.

So...Yes the power company can say the lines where there first and the HO can say they just built the lines. Both are spinning the facts.

If I seem less than caring about National Grid keep in mind this is the same company that said humans had nothing to worry about when live manhole covers where killing pets because humans don not walk around bare foot.

So National Grids Press people will say anything to try to cover their rear side.

Bob
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 11:57 AM
I think here is some s$#% stirring going on.

Firstly i don't believe that guy with the fluro tube.
He is not standing near or under those lines, i think the photo is doctorred somehow.

Also during the building of the house you would expect the builders getting shocks already of steel pipes, roofing material etc.

HT power lines have usually easements around them. If people are stupid enough to build to close, or underneath, that is their problem, not the POCO.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 12:07 PM
Unbelievable, the people on the site apparently know less than the arm chair quaterbacks..... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 01:40 PM
Bob,
Quote
I don't pretend to know what is going on but this is no 'hick' town with a volunteer FD. This Town is close to becoming a city and the FD is a very professional full time organization.
I take real exception to that comment!. [Linked Image]
Having been both Paid and Volunteer as a Fire-Fighter, IMO the Volunteers are more professional than the Paid ones.
At least the Volunteers don't Moon-light!.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 01:46 PM
BTW Bob,
Our Hick Town Volunteer Brigade done 406 Calls this year, as of mid-night.

{Edit to correct call number}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 01-05-2007).]
Posted By: electure Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 01:47 PM
You are looking at the shadow of the tower in the link I posted. The tower appears nearly vertical and looks white. Here's an old pic of the same line about 1/2 mile away.

[Linked Image]

Bob, I don't see where anyone suggested you live in a "hick" town, that they have all the answers, or that there's a conspiracy. You are the first to bring up the subjects.
Nobody's denying that there's some electricity there.
Does the whole neighborhood get shocked (looks like there's even a pool)?
How can he expect a final inspection when the house isn't complete?
Do doorknobs shock when they're in the package, or do they wait until they're installed and the owner's broke? He did all the work himself, and never noticed a thing or made a mistake?

I think everyone involved is at fault if for no more reason than poor planning, a series of unintentional mistakes were made, and everybody's gone into disaster control / embellishment mode.
Time will have the answers.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 01:54 PM
Quote
I think everyone involved is at fault if for no more reason than poor planning, a series of unintentional mistakes were made, and everybody's gone into disaster control / embellishment mode.
Time will have the answers.

Most sensible comment made in this thread so far.

Having just come back from a personal visit to the site that appears to be the case.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:02 PM
Bob,
Quote
You guys are amazing.

Not one of you has been there but have all the answers.
We always aim to please, you know. [Linked Image]
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:04 PM
Mike I mean no disrespect to you and I know your background but your trying to compare your experience with how things are a world away.

As much as we are the same we are different.

Quote
I take real exception to that comment!.
Having been both Paid and Volunteer as a Fire-Fighter, IMO the Volunteers are more professional than the Paid ones.
At least the Volunteers don't Moon-light!.


Let me say I have the utmost respect for firefighters both volunteer and paid. [Linked Image]

But it is a fact that in this area the volunteer department personal are nowhere near as busy or experienced as the full time guys.

If your insulted I am sorry but that is the fact here.

As far as the Moonlighting thing...you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to the laws in MA. Licensed Journeymen are legally allowed to 'moonlight' here. As a licensed J-man all I need to do is get some generally liability insurance and I can wire whatever I want. I can do that full time or I can do it on the side, either is ethical and legal.

So just drop the moonlighting BS, and stick with this thread.

Bob
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:07 PM
By the way Mike, in this area it is very common that the firefighters moonlight as electricians.

Their odd schedules make that work well for them.

As long as they have an electrical license they are legally entitled to do so.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: walrus Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 02:25 PM
You guys don't even know what a hick town is, my town doesn't have fire dept, volunteer or otherwise [Linked Image]
Posted By: electure Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 03:29 PM
I can't seem to get it to link, but a Terraserver 1987 topo map shows 4 poles (or the 2 tower structures) running down the easement.
It appears they were there first.




[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 03:46 PM
I saw the link, I cut and pasted it to my address bar and got it.

It was pretty cool.

I have pictures, there is no doubt that one run of lines is fresh. The ground around each pole is freshly disturbed.

It looks like one of the inside sets of lines is new or it may have been there on tall wood poles but has been replaced with metal poles.

Bob
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 03:47 PM
Cut and paste the following into your address bar for the map electure found.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=19&X=388&Y=5813&W=3&qs=225+Lindsey%7c%7cma%7c&Addr=225+Lindsey+St%2c+North+Attleboro%2c+MA+02760&ALon=-71.2806738&ALat=4%201. 9876283
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 04:30 PM
Bob's link above works fine. Going thru this thread is akin to a quick geography lesson.

As to the fluoro lamp 'illuminating', it has happened to ME a few times (F120-CW-HO) on sign maint jobs, a little 'to close' to the primaries.

As to this 'owners' quandry, the scenario does not sound '100%'. Surveys, zoning, footing & foundation locations, inspections, title search, banks, etc. And no one had noticed?

Happy New Year to all, Peace and Good Will.

John
Posted By: capt al Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 04:34 PM
Very interesting reading here. I live six miles form the home and find the experts here quite humorous. It is real amazing how everyone who lives so far from here has all the answers. Bob has been very accurate in his posts. There is a lot of he said they said going on with this home.

As far as National Grid goes I do not believe a word of theirs. In this area to get a building permit the lot must be surveyed first. Then you get a foundation permit. Install the foundation for the home and have the property resurveyed to show the placement of the foundation on the lot. Submit this plan to the building department and you will get a building permit if everything is correct. So if his foundation was in National Grids easement do you think the town would have issued a permit to build? I do not. North Attleboro is no little HICK town. No I do not live in North Attleboro.

One more interesting point to consider here. The house does not have a connected electrical service to it, but you can read 59.6 volts between the ground of a receptacle next to the sink and the stainless steel sink. Sounds like EMF to me but I am not an expert.

Al
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 05:40 PM
This is the power line behind my house
Maybe you folks can guess at the size http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/powerline.jpg

I have heard 125kv and 250kv for the top set but I don't know for sure. The posts are about 90-100' high. My boathouse is technically in the right of way but it is over submerged lands so it is state controlled.
Posted By: electure Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 06:18 PM
With much less information than is given between the stories, the maps, and the videos here, members regularly solve problems, speculate, and come up with answers from hundreds and even thousands of miles away. Just because this happens to be close to your home doesn't mean that it should be sacred ground. Don't take it so personally.

The picture I posted is from about 7 miles from where I used to live, which had a population of 12. A truely hick town right in the middle of SoCA, I lived in a doublewide, trapped crawdads, had a girlfriend with a chip out of her tooth, and I wore bib overalls. [Linked Image]

I'll be the hick, if you'll all be nice to each other [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: mxslick Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 06:23 PM
Wow!

Quote
You guys are amazing.

Not one of you has been there but have all the answers.

Nice to know I'm not the only one here who can get iwire all wound up! [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Wanna bet that whole house is wired with multi-wire homeruns? [Linked Image]

And we know that National Grid uses shared neutrals. [Linked Image]


Seriously though, I do agree with this:

Quote
I think everyone involved is at fault if for no more reason than poor planning, a series of unintentional mistakes were made, and everybody's gone into disaster control / embellishment mode.

And as for the value he quoted for the home, etc., if Bob's assessment of the potential value of the whole property is correct, then this guy's still a moron. If you factor in the true cost of construction using all the trades, and so on, he has spent at least 150% of the actual value of the property already as a guess.

O.k., to take it a step further, most people wouldn't buy a house so close to a utility ROW anyways, so hopefully this guy planned on spending the rest of his life there. I don't see it ever being able to sell at it's true value.

I have no sympathy for that guy at all. Sad but True.

edited to change "hose" to "house" [Linked Image]


[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: Elviscat Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:08 PM
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001220.html

This thread deals with a related issue, and shows that it is possible to get shocked from metal too close to HV lines, however those tent poles are WAY closer to those lines...

Hey Bob, should we all get one of these? [Linked Image] [Linked Image from drscience.com]
:P

-Will



[This message has been edited by Elviscat (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:22 PM
I'll keep my sponge Bob mug. [Linked Image]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:54 PM
I think I take the prize for being "out of town." Our signs say "Cattle must be fenced" and "occupied area- no discharge of firearms".... you've got to be LOTS closer to need a building permit [Linked Image]

As far as this guy in Massachusetts goes .... by the time ECN is done, the sundry lawyers will have their work done for them!

Now, Iwire is in the area, and is quite knowledgeable. We won't mind a bit if he "moonlights" a bit, and gets to the bottom of this controversy.

BTW ... did I see crop circles in that sat pic?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 07:59 PM
None of y'all know hick till you'se been where I's livin [Linked Image] Y'all check out our city song [Linked Image]

Bakersfield Rap

Now back on the subject.... Al, purely out of curiousity, where did you learn about those voltage readings? I've come across similar situations, sans the HV lines and located a loose poco neutral and the water bond not being anywhere nears within 8' of the piping entering the home (it was on the backyard hosebib, water entered through the front)... But no power connection here so scrap that idea....

Bob or Al, how close would you figure the house is from the nearest HV phase?
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 08:11 PM
I went there and I would say that the closest power line is about 45' away.

Close by 'normal' distances along these lines but certainly not the 27' mentioned earlier in the thread.

Reno....I'll get to the bottom of them crop circles as well. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Posted By: capt al Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 09:02 PM
I would agree with Bob on the 45'. A Fluke meter was used to take the readings.
As far as the owner goes I feel bad for him. He is in a bad spot.
Al
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 12/31/06 10:31 PM
"Close by 'normal' distances along these lines but certainly not the 27' mentioned earlier in the thread."

Nothing like seeing for yourself, i felt like i was the only one here that agreed he had real problems, might be because i have seen these problems before, Al's information was helpful, in showing there is a real problem there, and yes, the utility is not going to give any information, including the grid traffic, and at what levels they transmit, so it would be just a good guess at this point.

Bob, Tnx for the info.



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: capt al Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 01:00 AM
Here is one source for the voltage readings.

click here
click on video center then Power Struggle

Al
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 01:15 AM
Thank for the link Capt Al. I have a question though, what is a milligoth? In the clip I hear Mr. Zagami mention milligoths, and that 20+ MG's can cause leukimia and other types of health risks??
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 01:56 AM
If the 2nd set of HV transmission lines are in fact new,
and I believe from what Bob has said that they are,
then similiar problems should exist in neigboring homes.

[This message has been edited by ShockMe77 (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 02:08 AM
Perhaps "milligoth" == "milligauss"?
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 02:39 AM
Quote
Perhaps "milligoth" == "milligauss"?

Your guess is as good as mine bud...probably better [Linked Image]
Posted By: Mr. Ed Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 02:53 AM
Doesn't "milli" mean one thousandth? Must be a Thousandth of a "Goth". [Linked Image]
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 03:09 AM
Good one Mr. Ed, 'one thousandth of a goth.' [Linked Image]

However, I went ahead and did a google search on milliGAUSS, [Linked Image] and found some info. All kinds of research and conclusions on this subject.



[This message has been edited by Luketrician (edited 12-31-2006).]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 05:41 AM
Luke,

This link has a few abstracts, and some good research papers, on the subject, my bet is if they increased the length of the line separators, that would help.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=High+voltage+transmission+flux
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 06:24 AM
Thanks LK!
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 06:44 AM
Luke,

This is from National Grids information, shows the field effect.
http://www.emfs.info/Source_transmission.asp

Inside that envelope area, is where you can usually get a lamp to glow.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-01-2007).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 11:14 AM
Quote
I have a question though, what is a milligoth?

These are 'Goths'


[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]

Obviously milligoths are very short Goths. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Eddy Current Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 01:58 PM
In the news clip sent in by Capt. Al it looks like the electrician is measuring the voltage from the ground pin on the receptacle to the sink! Potential from ground to water pipe? Are they not bonded together somewhere?

Around here 300kv lines are alot higher, never seen a light tube light under one? Gonna try tomorrow
Posted By: TwinCitySparky Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 02:15 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/3509651.stm

Yes, they do light up!
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 03:58 PM
From the article linked by TwinCitySparky:
Quote
The exhibition, which is on display from 1700 GMT until 2000 GMT each day until Sunday 29 February, is on a hillside near junction 18 of the M4.
How exactly are they turning them off the rest of the time???!
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 04:32 PM
Eddy there is no requirement that a sink be bonded to the electrical system.

In a house with plastic supply and waste plumbing a steel sink is very likely not to be bonded.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 06:30 PM
Wouldn't the garbage disposal create a bond? (If it's plugged in?)
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/01/07 07:06 PM
I bet it would, if it exists or is wired in.
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 12:41 AM
Quote
Obviously milligoths are very short Goths..


Man...how funny is that, but I'm sure you guys are laughing with me instead of at me..right?? haha

Gonna do a little research next time, make sure my ears don't decieve me... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 01:27 AM
Milli goths? Hmmm... A short person, who hates society, hates corporations, hates "the machine", but goes to "Hot Topic" and spends $49.99 on an anarchy shirt and $24.99 on metal rings to stick in their face....

Doesn't make alot of sense does it?? [Linked Image from img.photobucket.com]
Posted By: Elviscat Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 04:28 AM
Lostazhell, you forgot that they're a collection of individuals who all dress the same, do the same things, act the same... and spend a lot of time talking about how unique they are and how other people are all the same [Linked Image]
-Will
Posted By: winnie Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 04:46 AM
This seems to be the most extensive news article on the house: http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2006/12/28/news/news4.txt

I wonder if bonding beyond that normally required by the NEC would solve most or all of the problems, and I wonder how the homeowner and workers managed to ignore this issue until the electrical inspector showed up.

It might very well have been a time of year thing, or perhaps all of the construction was at night when line currents were lower [Linked Image]

-Jon
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 10:36 AM
Photos

This first one shows the lines and insulators themselves. I have no idea what voltage this is, maybe some of you will.

[Linked Image]

This next picture shows the home, sorry about the glare. Notice the access to the home is the dirt road under the lines.

[Linked Image]

This next photo is the best I could do to show the lines and the home. It is my best guess that at it's closest the line is about 45' from the home.

[Linked Image]

In this next photo I am standing almost in front of the house looking back up the driveway, the home is over my left shoulder as I am taking this photo.

You can see my van in the driveway, it's about 800' behind van to the public road.

You can also see a camper where I suspect the HO is living, notice his metal camper is much closer to the lines than his home. I did not knock on his door as this was early morning.

[Linked Image]



This last photo shows the base of the newer towers. Two sets of lines are without a doubt new, however they could have been replacing an older set of smaller lines. Many of the supports further down the line are all wood, perhaps they are changing out the wood for the metal? In any case you can see the earth has recently been disturbed under each of these new metal poles.

[Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-02-2007).]
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 02:32 PM
Great shots, Bob. Interesting that the driveway runs through both sets of transmission lines. And you're right, the camper does look like it's closer to the lines than the house is. Wonder if the same electrical hazards exist in the camper too.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 02:39 PM
Bob, I really appreciate your efforts. The more we look at this tale, the screwer it gets.

Google Earth is an amazing thing. Looking at what they say is the adderss, I see something well within the 'clear cut' area under the power lines. In this dated sat pic, the only dirt road looks to be one placed there to access the poles. I wonder if that's this guy' "driveway?" There certainly doesn't look like anywhere else that can be 800 ft. from that busy road.

I note another home across Lindsey, quite close to the poles, and with a pool. Likeiwstm there are a number of other homes in the ares ... most notably at Pollis & Pridemark Streets, that are quite close to the lines ... almost under them, in fact. I wonder if these folks have any problems.

A camper parked under the lines seems to suggest that the complaint is bunk.

I note in the Sun article that the problem was 'discovered' at the time of the inspection. If that is the case, we can only conclude that this guy was quite willing, up to that point, to palm this house off on some unsuspecting buyer.

There are just too many things in this tale that stink. If nothing else, it appears that Zagami was quite happy with the town officials .... up to the point that one actually did his job!
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 08:07 PM
Reno, I respectfully disagree with you. What I believe happened was this. There are no laws that guard against building where this house was built. If there were, then the town would have never issued the permit to build there.

Now, some have pointed out that there are POCO rules that forbid this kind of building within the easement. That may or may not be true. If there are rules like this than the township that issued the permit should have known this and apparently they didn't.

IMO, this is an issue between the township and the national grid and the victim here is the HO.
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 09:21 PM
Quote
Now, some have pointed out that there are POCO rules that forbid this kind of building within the easement. That may or may not be true. If there are rules like this than the township that issued the permit should have known this and apparently they didn't.
The easement should have been recorded on the property deed, but it is very unlikely that this would show up when they got there permit. I know around here they do not look at the deed before the permit is issued. I would expect that the easement was recorded and the owner did not look at it before building. It should have shown up when he got a loan for the project as the banks normally do look at the deed restrictions.
Don
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 10:42 PM
I'm not doubting what you're saying, Don, but what you are saying is that in your area the bank who gives the loan for the house should have picked this up since they review the deed of the house before giving out the loan?
Posted By: circuit man Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 11:11 PM
i'm begining to belive i smell a rat! just how do you electrify a doorknob? we have some power lines here that look similar to that,they leave the power plant,not sure exactly where they go,but would bet they go to a switch yard to feed various substations.look like that camper would really lite ya up. it's all metal! i belive i would have to have some proof with a volt meter. i think this fella is trying to take some one for a ride. but stranger things have happened. if i see one of the guys from the power company i will ask about the voltage.

[This message has been edited by circuit man (edited 01-02-2007).]
Posted By: electure Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/02/07 11:38 PM
Bob, thank you for the pics.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but a couple of things strike me as odd.
The FD closed the place off upon their "Hot Stick" registering a reading. I taped my little Greenlee non-contact to the truck mirror today. It looks like we'd better condemn SoCA. It sung like a bird on and off all over town.
I've got an Ideal tester that is more sensitive than the Greenlee. It will go off 3-1/2' from my TV (Greenlee 2').
Also my high impedance digital meter will register about 6 volts with one lead on a grounded cover plate screw, and the other held in the air a foot or so from the TV.

I parked this morning for a minute on aptly named "Edison Ave", directly under a criss-cross/mish mash of power lines, including 500KV lines. [Linked Image]
I was able to get 22V from the truck bed to a 400 watt core&coil ballast I had. As soon as I connected a 20K resistor across the leads as well, the voltage went to 0. I was unable to get close to get a reading to any of the "Happy Cows" [Linked Image]

I'd like to see them do the voltage from the sink to the receptacle deal with an analog meter [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-02-2007).]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 12:25 AM
"It looks like we'd better condemn SoCA. It sung like a bird on and off all over town."

Scott, we already know you have Goths all over town, it's SoCa!

I am sure you can tie it down, and bring the reading to 0, I think the real danger here is the presence of the field, and what you discovered, is the pollution we can't see, the fields all around us, from power lines, cell towers, and even the ballast in our kitchen fixture at home, it's the prolonged exposure to these fields, that we don't know what the effects on our bodies will be, controlled tests have been done, and published, just to be discarded as junk science, or urban legend.

We want to continue to grow our economy, and provide new jobs, and have homes with the latest gadgets, addressing the invisible problems of EMF polution, would only slow our growth, just think of it as electrical exhaust fumes, and don't live near the tail pipe!

At least we know why the cows are happy, their brains are fried, from grazing under the tension lines.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-02-2007).]
Posted By: e57 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 01:28 AM
Better stay away from anywhere one could see the northern or southern lights - more EMF confluence there than anywhere else. (Solar radiation too.)

Scott, one of those greenlee tickers will go off like a humming bird on a wool sweater - always lots of fun with the girls back in the day. "Ooo - honey you're hot."
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 01:35 AM
How did that line work out for you?
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 01:38 AM
Scott, what are you doing in my backyard taking pictures?? [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Posted By: LK Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 01:50 AM
"Better stay away from anywhere one could see the northern or southern lights - more EMF confluence there than anywhere else. (Solar radiation too.)"

And every time there is a flair up, or increased solar activity, radio communications, power distribution equipment, and other electronic devices are subject to damage, that is usually from a short duration event, long term exposure to smaller fields, are still an unknown.
Posted By: electure Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 02:04 AM
Randy, I didn't realize your area had electricity yet. [Linked Image]
A question:
Are all these people concerned with the continued effects of the EMF, or is this hullabaloo all about a perceived shock hazard?


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-02-2007).]
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 04:53 AM
Quote
Are all these people concerned with the continued effects of the EMF

Wouldn't we be exposed to more EMF than anyone else?? (maybe linemen more than wiremen though...) My cousin I learned the electrical trade from lived to be 99 [Linked Image]

PS... The electricity just goes through town, if I line the cows up in series under the 500KV, I get enough current to get on ECN [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by Lostazhell (edited 01-02-2007).]
Posted By: girl germs Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 06:57 AM
I really don't know enough of anything to have anything useful to add here... The whole thing is just a little too "????" to me...

But as for the fluorescent tube picture -- May the schwartz be with you. And your camper too.

(Sorry, couldn't help it.)

LMFAO about the milli-goths.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-03-2007).]
Posted By: ITO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 03:20 PM
Mr. Zagami’s story does not pass the sniff test.

1) He built the house on a utility easement; it just does not get any dumber than that. Would anyone here build their home on a utility easement? Just curious, lets see a show of hands.

2) Just because you got your plans past permitting does not mean you don’t have to use common sense or that you can violate building codes. I have done many a job where something on the plans was not right and still made it past plan review, and guess what… I still had to do it right to get it past the inspector; plan review is not the final check, its just one of the checks. If you got a permit to build your house in a flood plain, and your house flooded, you could not blame permitting.

3) Mr. Zagami was warned repeatedly not to build on the easement by the POCO.
Quote
“Debbie Drew, the spokeswoman, said Zagami built his home on National Grid’s easement and ignored its repeated warning to stop.”
Yet he did it anyway an that is somehow the poco’s fault?

4) $360K for a 1,700 SF house? That is $211 a square foot; unless the land cost him $190k (which it probably does not since it is on a UTILITY EASMENT), I don’t buy it.
If you can’t build a house yourself for under $100 a square foot, you are doing it wrong.(Granted I am being a snob but that does not look like an expensive house to me)

5) What bank in their right mind would make a home construction loan for a house built on a utility easement? ]

6) … and now this is all somehow everyone other than Mr. Zagami’s fault, who is the complete victim of a “bad home inspector who no longer works for the city”?

Sorry I have worked construction long enough to be jaded and I just don’t buy it. This guy is either a complete idiot, or smart enough to think he could pull a fast one, but got caught and is trying to come up with the “right” story.


[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 01-03-2007).]
Posted By: ITO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 03:26 PM
…and another thing: Did he not notice that metal objects like his camper, and car, and tools he was using building his house were energized? At what point did he stop and say, hey this is not right? From the story it sounds like he was willing to ignore it until the inspector shut him down.
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 08:11 PM
shockme,
Quote
Don, but what you are saying is that in your area the bank who gives the loan for the house should have picked this up since they review the deed of the house before giving out the loan?
The title insurance would have noted the easement on the policy, but I am not sure if they would have checked to make sure that the terms of the easement were complied with. As long as the easement was recorded against the property the only one at fault here is the owner if he built within the easement.
Don
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 08:30 PM
Quote
1) He built the house on a utility easement; it just does not get any dumber than that. Would anyone here build their home on a utility easement? Just curious, lets see a show of hands.

Two different surveyors did come out one before the foundation and one after the foundation.

Both surveyors say it is not on the easement.

Quote

3) Mr. Zagami was warned repeatedly not to build on the easement by the POCO.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Debbie Drew, the spokeswoman, said Zagami built his home on National Grid’s easement and ignored its repeated warning to stop.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Means nothing, this is the same POCO that said humans have nothing to worry about when pets where getting killed on live manhole covers "Because humans do not walk around bare foot."

Quote

5) What bank in their right mind would make a home construction loan for a house built on a utility easement?

They did not, as far as the surveyors are concerned it is not on the easement.

I agree the HO bares some responsibility but as electure mentioned a ways back there is plenty of blame to go around.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-03-2007).]
Posted By: ITO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 08:43 PM
Granted I don’t know the local rules where this house was built, but every other project I have ever been on, there is an engineered set of plans submitted for plan review from the AHJ, prior to any permits being issued. These plans have a civil drawing showing any easements that may be present. The approved plans become part of the contract documents, which any lenders on the project get a copy of as part of the lending process.

Regardless of any mistakes that make it through plan review the builder has the responsibility to ensure the building meets all local codes. If a 200A feeder is shown with #3 AWG, and somehow makes it past plan review, the builder still has to use the proper wire size for the feeder, and can not blame the inspector for failing him if he does not. “It made it past plan review” is a poor excuse for doing something wrong.
Posted By: ITO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 08:45 PM
Quote
Two different surveyors did come out one before the foundation and one after the foundation.

Both surveyors say it is not on the easement.

If this is the case, and he is on the easement then he may have legal grounds to sue both surveyors.
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 09:07 PM
I agree.
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 09:32 PM
I can't imagine that he is not on the easement, but I also can't imagine two surveyors making the same mistake. I wonder how wide the easement is? They are working on the layout of a single 138kV line in my area and the minimum that our utility wants is 50' from the center line of the poles for their easement. I would expect that it would be wider for the 345kV lines.
Don
Posted By: iwire Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 09:36 PM
BTW some of the info I posted was based on hearsay so take it for what it is worth.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Forgetting about the high voltage above the house it is a nosy area on summertime weekends, a lot of trail bikes, ATVs etc. [Linked Image]
Posted By: ITO Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/03/07 09:38 PM
So two licensed and bonded surveyors messed up? There is nothing about this that smells right.
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/04/07 12:33 AM
Some of the stories quote National Grid as saying that the driveway, water and sewer lines are on their easement, but don't say that the house is.

Nobody has said that National Grid has sent out a surveyor. Which leads me to suspect that they don't actually know whether the house is on their easement, in which case the statement reported in other stories that they are claiming the house in on the easement is either erroneous reporting or posturing by National Grid.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/04/07 01:47 AM
Quote
4) $360K for a 1,700 SF house? That is $211 a square foot; unless the land cost him $190k (which it probably does not since it is on a UTILITY EASMENT), I don’t buy it.
If you can’t build a house yourself for under $100 a square foot, you are doing it wrong.(Granted I am being a snob but that does not look like an expensive house to me)
I'm finishing up DIY-building a 2000 square foot addition that's bigger than his house, including a $20k kitchen, 3 bedrooms, bathroom, garage, living room, diniing room, the works- more than doubling the size of my house... for about $80k total- that's about $40/sqft for whoever's counting. And that's using quality materials and not cutting corners. No way that house cost him $360k to build if he built it himself like he claims. It might be worth $360k if it was built 100' away, but it certainly didn't cost him that to build.

Quote
Nobody has said that National Grid has sent out a surveyor.
On the one TV interview, national grid said they had an independant survey done, and he built on their easment.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 01-03-2007).]
Posted By: e57 Re: Electrified house in Mass - 01/04/07 06:35 AM
"How did that line work out for you?"

On a few occasions - pretty well - but I was a shoe in anyway by the time I got around to that.... I was a good looking guy in my 20's and could charm the stripes off a tiger.... Seem to be lacking charm and looks these days - fortunately married the last one to fall for it.

As for utility easements I have 5' of overhead 12kv in the back and 2' of the front yard is high-pressure gas down about 3' - both running the same direction the width of 28' on my lot. The only thing that bugs me is I cant put in a hot tub in the back yard as several service drop spread out from the pole out back as well - knew that when I bought the place. Both are required set-backs and can't build in them anyway due to zoning/planning. When they moved the transformer out of my yard a few months back I tried to get them to mid-span the neighbors drop - but no dice... Think I need to talk to them about thier easement, and its extent on my property as the drops are far outside the 5'....
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