... 210.8 states: A) Dwelling Units
(7) Laundry, Utility, and Wet Bar Sinks. GFCI protection is required for all 15 and 20A, 125V receptacles located within an arc measurement of 6 ft from the dwelling unit laundry, utility, and wet bar sink.

...does that mean the 120 volt washer and dryer circuit has to be on a GFCI as well??
I'd done this in the past and was called back numerous times because the washer motor windings would "simulate" a ground fault on start-up,... so I was told by other sparkies that it's not good to put motor loads on a GFCI because the GFCI "reads" the event as a fault and trips the device... Please advise...thanx...AR

Look at 210.8 (5) exception No 2.

"a duplex receptacle for two appliances"

The exception to 210.8(A)(5) don’t apply. There are no exceptions to 210.8(A)(7)

Curt

If a washing machine trips a GFCI is is broke! That is not uncommon but it is also not right.
I have a 2 foot heavy duty extension cord with the zip cord style wire. I carefully split apart the conductors so I can put my clamp on over each wire. It makes a good testing tool.
I bet you will see current spikes or just a continuous current on the center (EGC) conductor on an appliance that trips the GFCI. I use that for people who give me the old saw about refrigerators tripping GFCIs on start up. They are usually spiking ground faults the whole time they are running.
Washing machines either have damp lint in the open frame motors, water where it shouldn't be or they have damaged conductors shorting to the frame. Remember a short from neutral to ground will trip the GFCI and never trip the O/C device, spark or give any outward appearance of a problem.

Which code cycle? 2005? Wet bars for instance.... It takes an evalutuonary step.


2005 just says "Laundry, Utility, and Wet Bar Sinks. Nothing about countertops.... Hmmmm.... Y'all might be SOL.... Glad I'm not on that code cycle....

Yup, on the 2005 code you either need a long cord or you will be putting the washer on a GFCI. I suppose the installers could put the laundry outlet 61" from the sink. This also does not apply to a laundry that only has a standpipe for the washer drain.

Just wait for the 2008 code...all of the exceptions are gone except for the snow melting/deicing one and the basement one for fire/burglar alarms. Note this is based on the ROP and could change, but I doubt it.
Don

If using GFCI protection for a laundy circuit/ receptacle meets 2005 code, then inspectors around here certainly are NOT enforcing it.

Ya you wouldn't GFCI the laundry plug.

As far as I'm concerned its a dedicated circuit.


..err, even though I will jump from the laundry plug to hit an additiona plug in the laundry room sometimes... and if its within 6' from a sink I Gfci protect it...

So I have nothing to support this off the top of my head, but I do know that I think its rediculas to gfci protect a laundry plug.

[This message has been edited by Trick440 (edited 11-04-2006).]

Here in Chattanooga Tn they are certainly not enforcing it either Shock', when I wired up my new house this past june, everything passed without a hitch. Washer is on a dedicated 20a bc. No gfci protection.

My washer and dryer (gas) are both on a GFCI with no problems at all. In my case, it is a dedicated circuit serving the laundry equipment, located in the kitchen, above the counter, adjacent to the kitchen sink. There's no way it can't be a GFCI :-)

You better get used to it as the NEC requires it.

Once again I must be missing something, but 210.8(A)(7) seems to refer to sinks...not to the laundry room. I'd think that 210.8(A)(5)exception 2 would allow you to put in a single non-gfi receptacle for the washing machine if it were in the basement andid not have a sink to drain into, but rather a washer box or stand pipe. If the laundry is located in the upper level of the house with no sink (just a washer box) it shouldn't need to even have a single receptacle to be non-gfi protected. So what am I missing?

In Canada you don't need a GFI if the receptacle is located behind the stationary appliance so that it is inaccesable for use with a portable appliance 26-700(11a+b)

HLCbuild


From the 2005 NEC

If you have a sink in the laundry room any receptacle installed within 6' of that must be GFCI protected.

If the sink happens to be near the receptacle for the washer that one must also be GFCI protected.

There are no exceptions to 210.8(A)(7)


I agree, but keep in mind this exception will very likely vanish when the 2008 NEC comes out. And if in the basement if there is a sink within 6' of the washer receptacle the exception to 210.8(A)(5) will not apply at all.


Again I agree under the conditions you describe.

Which is why I passed my inspection. There isn't any type of sink in my laundry room.

IMHO the use of 6mA GFCI protection for metal frame appliances fixed in place is a slight misapplication of ground fault protection. I believe that it will cause nuisance tripping, not because there is no ground fault, but because there is no significant safety issue most of the time.

Just to be clear, if a washing machine trips a GFCI, then there is a real ground fault, and this probably indicates that something needs to be dealt with _eventually_. I see the same sort of issues with refrigerators in commercial kitchens, sump pumps in basements, etc.

A little bit of current leaking from to the metal frame and then to the EGC lead and back to the receptacle is _not_ a shock hazard unless someone is mucking around inside the appliance. I believe therefore that for these sort of applications, we should tolerate higher ground fault levels prior to tripping. If we want to get fancy, I believe that we could design a GFCI type receptacle that has different trip levels for 'ground fault balanced by return on the EGC lead' and 'ground fault returning someplace else'.

I've not fully thought this through, but it just seems to me that GFCI everywhere will lead to a reduction in electrical appliance reliability, and will increase costs, in excess of the safety benefit delivered.

-Jon

Jon, the NEC requires many motor loads to be GFCI protected.

In my time in construction we would live with all receptacles being GFCI protected.

If we had a trip it was for a real reason.

Currently all 20 amp 120 receptacles in non dwelling kitchens are required to be GFCI protected. There are no exceptions for refrigeration or other motor loads. This section was put into the NEC due to a death that would have likely been prevented by a GFCI.

Good design should come into play.

One GFCI receptacle per point of use so the cumulative leakage current of several appliances does not cause problems.

Use GFCI receptacles in place of GFCI breakers if possible to keep the ground fault protected circuit as short as possible.

BTW if I recall correctly the 4-6 ma was chosen as it is the level considered safe for healthy adults, it is already high than what is considered safe for infants

Another way of looking at this is any current shorting to the frame and going down the EGC is power you paid for and you are not getting any useful work out of.
I think this may be one reason old refrigerators use more current than they did when they were new. Most will trip the GFCI.
I believe it is due to internal shorts in the compressor. I have an old Fedders A/C compressor that I used for sucking down a vacuum on freon systems (when you could fix them) It trips a GFCI and there is nothing but a cord that goes directly into the compressor. When I get a minute I will do some testing with my clamp on and a current probe with my scope. Lets see what I find.

Greg I have read that the real culprit in older refrigerators where the electric defrost heating elements. They would develop ground leakage issues as they aged.

I have no proof of that, I think I saw that info in some handbook commentary.

I have a few culprits to check. Let me see what I find. A clamp on is a great tool for this stuff and when it is on a scope you really get a good look at what is happening.
I may be a day or so because it is busy around here and my regular PC is down (bad system board) I am on something I cobbled up from junk this morning and I don't have it configured for my camera.

I have seen a number of hermetic refer compressors develop ground faults over time. The type you see in smaller commercial units and residential reffers. I believe the oil inside heats up, and deteriorates eventualy becoming conductive, or cap start of the motor fails.

Back on the Commercial Kitchen GFI requirements, wording of codes, and application of exceptions... (commentary=not code)

I had an aurguement with a PM about that after I GFI'ed all the 120 recepticals, as that code (2002) has now been accepted here. I did it on one kitchen and the inspector gave me the thumbs up for doing it. "Hey, didn't have to tell you." Then did it on another, and this PM went ballistic. (Didn't bid the job that way) We aurgued about that code that also provides no exceptions, even for dedicated cord connected appliances. And after she had someone else pull all of the GFI's before the inspection, and passed, with different inspector it at final... then used that to rub in my face, and the begining of a steady deterioration of our working relationship. That was months ago, and my last day was last Friday! (After many black-white, apples-oranges, day-night, yes-no aurguments) Bottom line is it is not what passes, or what you get away with, it is what the code says. And often interpetation is not rocket science, although difficult to accept. Especially if you are just flat out wrong.
(edit to add code ref: )


[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 11-05-2006).]

Bob,

I entirely agree that if a GFCI trips, it is because there is a fault somewhere. And I am not going to argue that adding a GFCI does not improve safety; clearly it is a very reasonable position that if there is an insulation fault, it should be fixed, no exceptions.

As I said, I am throwing out ideas for consideration here.

It still seems to me that the 6mA ground fault protection for personnel is not necessarily the best solution for equipment fastened in place. A metal frame appliance fastened in place is very different from the tools used at construction sites or portable tools used with extension cords, or a small appliance in a kitchen.

The appliance fastened in place is more likely to be something subject to unattended use, and more likely to have a reliable EGC connection. The first point suggests that a higher trip level be desirable to reduce un-attended failures, the second point suggests that more leakage could be tolerated.

-Jon

Jon I was not trying to give you a hard time and I am also just putting out some ideas for discussion.

Very little equipment 'fastened in place' or hardwired is required to be GFCI protected.

Pool pumps for instance, cord and plug connected requires a GFCI, hardwired does not.

In this case, a Washing machine I see no 'downside' to providing GFCI protection at 6 ma as UL standards require less leakage current than that from an appliance.

I do see an up side.

Many times I have found the cords of large appliances damaged from getting 'run over' by the appliance itself when it is pushed into place.

I believe it is exact type of damage that the requirements for non-dwelling kitchens and vending machines where put into place.

The EGC gets compromised and than either existing leakage current or damage to an ungrounded conductor results in a live appliance frame.