A DIY just posted some pics of their work that passed inspection. This work was to rewire a house damaged by Katrina.

Good thing I am not their inspector.

http://www.perezweb.net/images/Panel-001.jpg

edited for bad link


[This message has been edited by Jim M (edited 10-20-2006).]

Bad links!

It really surprised me that the inspector passed that panel- he did a neat job, but wiring methods like that only work with cat5, not with romex!

Link isn't working from here either... upload the pic and send it to electure@sbcglobal.net
He'll put it on the ECN server

<IMG SRC=\"http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3361/panel001yl2.th.jpg\">

Did NOT THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE TO STUFF THAT MUCH ROMEX IN Pvc LIKE THAT. Do not know how it passed. Panel work is pretty good though. Everything else NO-WAY. No romex connectors at lowes or Home depot down there? Inspector there needs to look at installations and panel boards.

[This message has been edited by steve ancient apprentice (edited 10-20-2006).]

See panels using a 2" PVC MA for all the romex all the time down here (FL) and they do pass inspection.

The 2" PVC is standard practice in Texas. They now require the wires to be spread out and stapled to a board before entry to the 2" PVC in the panel.

Not sure why u don't consider this ok.

Sure it will work.Just too messy for my anal retentive personality.

That many cables through conduit requires derating. Code allows bundling for 24", but unless he fans those out in the rafters, there's no way he meets that.

He also lacks strain relief at the panel, which I've always understood to be a requirement for NM.

I've seen a lot worse, even by "Masters". One of my "Dead Giveaways" about DIY's is that the Expurt Lectric Design Services available at Lowes and Home Despot never know about reduced neutrals, the use of which I consider as a sign that the installer had some sort of clue. Of course, that would slightly reduce sales of copper for the big boxes. The clerks in Supply houses aren't hip to the reduced neutral idea either.

Shouldn't there be a plastic bushing on the PVC

Almost Fried, with all the switched power supplies everywhere, reduced neutrals is no longer such a good idea. (Not that residences are going to have large VFDs or whole-house UPSs, but still) We've had serious problems in buildings built with undersized neutrals and have been forced into expensive repairs to try to remedy the (I'm not exaggerating) cherry-red neutrals! It honestly wouldn't surprise me if future revisions of NEC mandate neutrals LARGER than that of the phase conductors to account for the continuous harmonic current the neutrals are subjected to. Either that, or OCP on the neutrals as well as the phase conductors.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 10-21-2006).]

A couple of random thoughts:

- It's a disaster rebuild. I would not expect things to return to normal.... ever! In the race to get thing up and running again, I expect that there are lots of 'good enough' stuff taking place. It is also doubtful anyone will return and 'do it right' before it breaks, or the next hurricane comes along;

- Romex, like any other wiring method, needs to be attached to the panel. The bid PVC fitting may work, but it's not correct.
Connectors do two things. One, as mentioned, is provide strain relief; wull on the cable, and the force never makes it to the wire connections. The other is, the connector keeps sparks in the box- and not in the wall, to start a fire. This is why we use knock out seals as well.

- Shared neutrals, as well as reduced neutrals, are far less forgiving. As we use more electronics, I expect the reduced neutral will be limited to feeders- and branch circuits will all get full size (or even over size) neutrals.
Kind of wonder just how one would use a 'reduced', or even 'shared', neutral with romex, though! Such an approach would have to have been designed into the cable.

If the two hots are 180 degrees in phase apart, you can get away with normal or undersized neutrals. The timing of the harmonic current draw on one such phase is the same for the other phase. Which means that the harmonics on the neutral would cancel (if equal). Where the problem comes up is in systems where the phases are 120 degrees apart. Then you will not get cancellation on the neutral, as the timing of the harmonic currents are different.

Can't do that in Canada eh!
1- NM must have a connector that's designed for use with such cable and shall be used to secure the cable in place adequately.[CEC 12-3022(3)]
2- Close the openings through which the conductors pass in such a manner that any remaining opening will not permit entrance of a test rod 6.75mm in diameter[12-3022(e)]

Also, don't you have to keep the main conductors seperate from the other conductors in that type of panel? You know, the ones with the little wall attached to the cover that seperates them?

Nope, no walls or separation like that in the US, it's all just jammed in there pretty much however the installer feels like. In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard of that! How does that work, doesn't that really put a crimper on how you can route cables into the panel?

Could have reduced the cable count by using 12/3 HR's, and fanned them out on that nailer the 10/3 is on, and spread them out in the 1/2" KO's of the panel. Anyway, it would not fly here either. No strain releif connectors, and de-rating all of those bundles.

I can pick any job apart but I try not to be too nasty. I bet this is an improvement over the wiring it replaced so I am not that concerned. I also understand stovepiping all those RXes out one hole ain't legal but where are they going? I don't see them being moved around much. It may not be pretty but I bet it won't burn the house down.
Let's go look at what the "gas" man did.

Pretty good DIYer there.

SteveFehr quote:
Nope, no walls or separation like that in the US, it's all just jammed in there pretty much however the installer feels like. In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard of that! How does that work, doesn't that really put a crimper on how you can route cables into the panel?

Big time! You can only terminate a cable through the knockouts below the main breaker. Cannot come through the top. Only the mains and the main ground can be in there. In the installation you show, we would have to bring all those NM's around and through ko's on the side or bottom of the panel. Mabey even install the panel upside down?

Les told me once about an inspector that would not allow the feed to come into the bottom of the panel with the main breaker at the top. Said it violated the part about keeping the unfused cable as short as practical.

Is there some code referance for this top/bottom or branch/service conductor mixing, or what KO they came through?

Mark they are talking about some Canadian rules.

Their service conductors must be enclosed even with the cover off the rest of the panel.

I will try to dig up a photo.

Yes, the feeders are in the same panel, but I run mine BEHIND the branches. Having the feeders on top of everything like that makes service a nightmare.

As for the 2"(?) PVC feed-through-style connector - no way. Everybody has covered that problem in this thread. Would never pass here - very cheezy.

If the building layout dictates that the feeder needs to come at the bottom of the panel, why not just mount the panel with the main at the bottom?

...but then the sticker on the door would be upside-down!

NM cables entering through the top violate Section 312.5 C of the 2005 NEC.
The instalation should not be approved.
Alan--

I can reiterate what has been said re the Canadian way.
A service entry section of a panel used as service entrance can have only the service conductors installed. No Branch wiring at all. There is also a requirement here for the main breaker section to have its own barrier as the conductors are still hot even with the switch off. The panel could have been installed with the main section at the bottom. I had a guy from Arizona use a 2" PVC connector for all the branch wiring and I rejected it as there needs to be a connector terminating each cable. That method is going to permit rodents getting in the panel, I also don't like using staples as strain relief since staples are not supposed to be driven hard enough to grip the wire so the branch wires could be pulled out of the panel or tight against the terminals. It does appear to me that this type if cable entry is a lot more common than I believed.

To be honest, the panel in my house has all the (original) RX coming in one 2" connector. It has been that way since I got here and I haven't had a compelling reason to fix it.
I do have a new panel sitting there but I haven't had the ambition to tackle it.
Some day I guess.