I am doing research from other states that require CEU's for contractors to continue to hold their license. I am trying to convince Indiana to mandate CEU's before license can be renewed. If everyone could, please give me the States that require such. Even better, wouldn’t it be nice if they would go to a statewide license! I've been told that would be a cold day in *&^$%.
In MA we have mandatory cont. ed. It consists of, every three years, 15 hours of code update and 6 hours of subjects such as business law, first aid, safety and building code. It's a good way to keep up with code changes that are about to be enacted. This is for journeyman and master electrician licenses.
[This message has been edited by yanici (edited 09-17-2006).]
[This message has been edited by yanici (edited 09-17-2006).]
In New Jersey, we have 34 hours of CEU's, State Lic. laws for electrical have been here since the early 60's they were put in place as part of the consumer protection laws, to provide protection for consumers not to protect electricial contractors, from day one, the electrical contractors assn. has been active in the Lic. rule making, and any changes, they were the ones that suggested the CEU's be put in place, so my suggestion would be, to get active in your state electrical contractors assn.
New Jersey:
1 hour of Contractor Law from BOE
9 hours on NEC (2005)
24 hrs of 'Trade Related' subjects
Instructors are BOE Certified
The above is required for each 3 year Electrical Contractor Lic. Renewal
EC's have to pay for the above courses
Inspectors (AHJ's) are also required to take CEU's
Three year renewal period requires 1.5 credits (3 day long seminars) for each technical lic held, and an additional 1 day seminar for each administrative lic held.
(CEU's are funded by State fees tacked on to permit fees)
There is some 'dual credit' seminars for the AHJ's now, and dual credit is 'in the works' for EC's who have AHJ lic's also.
John
LK:
OK, you type faster then me.....
John
Aphares
THIS LINK will give you each states requirement and a list of approved CEU courses for some of the states.
Roger
John,
They will have to get involved with their state electrical contractors assn. if they want to make any head way, with Lic. laws, these groups, can lobby the state law makers, to help move things along.
Whatever you do do not follow California's lead on this. After seven years we dont have much to show for any of it. Dont get me wrong, it is a novel idea, but with competing agencies, thick beurocracy, and legal battles it has not gone well. We have a License Board that maintains all Contractors Licenses, (CSLB) and an Industrial Relations Board (DIR) with a sub-agency for Apprenticeship (DAS).
Bottom line the CSLB has the resources and intimate relations with the Trades to impliment something like this. But due to political connections the DAS guided by outside consultants have done all they could to mess it up. IMO...
Contrary to Mike Holts site linked above California requires 32 hours, however NO ONE knows where or how to get them as of yet - after seven years.....
(a) Certification shall be renewed every three (3) years. To be eligible for renewal an applicant must provide proof under penalty of perjury of 32 hours further electrical education from an Educational Provider relevant to the type of certification, and must certify under penalty of perjury that he or she has worked in the industry 2000 hours within the previous three years.
A quick google for your state using the correct terminology shows (Recent articles) that you are in one of the battle states for the types of organiations that can poison the path you may want to take in getting an edjucated work-force.
Both sides of
either of those fights will use a topic like this to thier own advantage. My advise would be to avoid influence of either of them, and shoot for a balancing act between them, otherwise one or the other will grab any effort you make and shift it into the neither world.
Why would any state try to reinvent something, take another state, that has a good Lic. program, and use it as a guide for yours, have some of these states, lost their minds, or are they really that far out of touch?
I appreciate the good intentions involved.... but can anyone show where CEU requirements have the slightest effect on contracting?
For example, can anyone show that contractors are any more competent or less crooked in state with such requirements?
They are that far out of touch....
![[Linked Image]](https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/wink.gif)
aphares, I did some reasearch and it seems you have a simular law for plumbers state-wide in your state. And it may be your best bet.
http://www.in.gov/pla/bandc/plumbing/ I think modeling any attempt you make after this set of regulations is your best option. And it will be all too easy to get this rolling with a few well placed letters to
both sides of the political sides at play in these types of things. If you get them to work together from the start, your state will be much better off.
I sent you an e-mail...
Reno, I dont think anyone wants to answer that question... So the answer is NO...
![[Linked Image]](https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/smile.gif)
Most states link contracting and licensing for it with backround checks, drug testing, and finger-printing - because of course we are all thieves, or worse.....
![[Linked Image]](https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif)
And compentency is subjective.... In the last few years I have noticed that those with a card seem to be less competent than those who didnt get one. IMO A test no matter how it is applied can not weed out morons, just those who cant read or be allowed take a test.
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-17-2006).]
Where did "crooked" come into play? You guys out west seem sour.
If you don't like your situation do something to change it. Pour out the contaminated Wheaties you're eating and get a fresh bowl.
We have our crooked and incompetent contractors here in N.C. but overall they are the exception, not the rule.
BTW, I'm sorry for the sorry STATE (pun intended, couldn't help myself) of affairs you guys are complaining about.
Roger
Roger, your state might be an exception, but it seems most states have comsumer protection boards that see contractors (in general) as bastions of corruption, or other wild assumptions....
Be sure the contractor has a permanent business location and telephone number. Verify them. A contractor who operates a business out of the back of a pickup truck with a cellular telephone may be difficult to find to complete a job or fix something that has gone wrong after the last bill is paid.
~When you have narrowed your search down to two (2) or (3) possible contractors, call your local Better Business Bureau, your city or county building inspection department, the Consumer Protection Section of the Department of Justice (919-733-7741) and the appropriate licensing board (see Introduction and Licensing) to see if there have been serious complaints against any of them.
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-17-2006).]
Mark, why do you feel back ground checks are insulting or insinuating a potential contractor is a low life?
I think the license issuer has a right to know if a person is of character or no character.
Roger
[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-17-2006).]
Be sure the contractor has a permanent business location and telephone number. Verify them. A contractor who operates a business out of the back of a pickup truck with a cellular telephone may be difficult to find to complete a job or fix something that has gone wrong after the last bill is paid.
~When you have narrowed your search down to two (2) or (3) possible contractors, call your local Better Business Bureau, your city or county building inspection department, the Consumer Protection Section of the Department of Justice (919-733-7741) and the appropriate licensing board (see Introduction and Licensing) to see if there have been serious complaints against any of them.
And what do you find upsetting about that?
I think it's good advice.
Roger
Roger appantly having a pick-up truck and a cell phone is grounds to question the back-round of a contractor in your state?
It's not that I find it insulting, but whats next DNA profiling? And it is not as if they do this type of thing for all proffessions.
"compentency is subjective"
Here in Jersey we had a pretty good test, you needed to know your stuff, to pass, then sometime in the mid 80's, they had complaints the test was to difficult, and they were not able to pass, so instead of sending, the poor babies back to school , they dumbed down the testing, so yes, even in jersey, there can be less than competent contractors out there, heck, they even complain now that the test is difficult, so now we have to run a CEU program, just to bring some of them up to a competent level, but we do have, a large number of competent electricians here, that do a good job, and are not crooks.
[This message has been edited by LK (edited 09-17-2006).]
LK how does Jersey conduct these CEU's? Is it state run or is it through the many "licensing schools" where you can pay for "Guarnateed to Pass"? (on-line at that - not that I see anything wrong with on-line edjucation if done correctly with over-sight.)
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-17-2006).]
Mark, I'm sorry but, I probably wouldn't hire a contractor whose business office is his pick-up, and as bad as it may sound, a contractor or business I would deal with will have a business phone that rings into a real office with an address.
As far as N.C. electrical contractors are concerned, it is pretty much that way in order to be legal.
Here is some more pertinent info
87-43. Electrical contracting defined; licenses.
Electrical contracting shall be defined as engaging or offering to engage in the business of installing, maintaining, altering or repairing any electric work, wiring, devices, appliances or equipment. No person, partnership, firm or corporation shall engage, or offer to engage, in the business of electrical contracting within the State of North Carolina without having received a license in the applicable classification described in G.S. 87-43.3 from the State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors in compliance with the provisions of this Article, regardless of whether the offer was made or the work was performed by a qualified individual as defined in G.S.87-41.1.
In each separate place of business operated by an electrical contractor at least one listed qualified individual shall be regularly on active duty and shall have the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct all electrical wiring or electrical installation work done or made by such separate place of business.
Every person, partnership, firm or corporation engaging in the business of electrical contracting shall display a current certificate of license in his principal place of business and in each branch place of business which he operates. Licenses issued hereunder shall be signed by the chairman and the secretary-treasurer of the Board, under the seal of the Board. A registry of all licenses issued to electrical contractors shall be kept by the secretary-treasurer of the Board, and said registry shall be open for public inspection during ordinary business hours.
Roger
[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-17-2006).]
Roger my point was that these consumer protection baords out there teach consumers out there that they should question all contractors as if there is a rampant culture of corruption. And seem to warn those same people that even if that person is licensed (even by that same board) they are still probhably cooks.
Dont get me wrong there are those who give us all a bad name. But I think it should be left at checking the license number in good standing, not getting into the general apperance of the person. (He has a cell-phone and a pick-up, I'm calling the cops...) Because I think these type of generalizations are mis-leading. You could have a big shiny add in the phone book, drive a van with a big ad on the side, (leave the cell-phone inside it) with a phone number that leads you to a nice secretary and still end up with a poorly done job or worse ripped off....
I dont think I am alone in the thinking that many states teach this contractor fear unjustifiably.
"does Jersey conduct these CEU's? Is it state run or is it through the many "licensing schools" where you can pay for "Guarnateed to Pass"? (on-line at that - not that"
The state has to approve the courses, they are reviewed by the state board, not just any course is approved, they have tough guide lines, on content of the course, also the instructors of each course, must meet stiff requirements, and a review of their professional background, by the board, no online courses are approved, online may be great for personal goals, but not for professional certification, i notice some states allow on line, and non regulated schools, or basket weaving courses for credit, of what value is that, to advance any trade, or profession.
Mark, I do agree with the jest of your last post. However, I just don't think there is a general consensus of consumer protection groups that most people or contractors are crooked.
The sad part of the world we live in is that we do have to be on our guard (and suspicious) as consumers.
Roger
Perhaps it's because the state boards only see all the complaints that are made against contractors.
Look at how many ECs view GCs....there are a lot of sleazy business operators out there.
Here in MA, a small state compared to CA, out of about 35,000 licensed electricians they got about 350 complaints.
That is more than one each business day.
I am not at all surprised they get a bad attitude.
As far as the CEUs I am also for them, and this from a guy that has to take one CEU course to maintain my MA and RI lics. and another nearly identical class to maintain my CT lic.
It can only help to force some of us to open the book.
Bob
Roger this (i just remembered) is a great example of the image issue...
It took about two weeks after I moved into my current home until I got a "Stop Work Notice" from our local DBI - Why? Our neighbor saw my truck parked at our house at off-hours and me taking tools in and out - did a permit search on my address and didn't see one so she called the DBI to complain of un-permited work. (I asked the inspector and he let me know she was a freequent caller ) The same woman stopped by to ask me for my card and ask when the owners were moving in - when I told her I was the owner she nearly soiled herself.
Looks like I ignited a firestorm! Not quite what I had intended.
I am open to reasonable suggestions.
Continuing Education, at first glance, sure LOOKS like a good thing.
Some States require it; some do not. Of those that do, the amount varies widely.
Since we have the track record, and we ought to be able to compare the two (CEU vs Non-CEU requirement).... it seems reasonable that, if the idea was truly a good one, we would be able to point to the results.
So- Where are the results? Absent the results, such a requirement is nothing but an additional burden on the law-abiding... and a gravy train for seminar factories!
Before I'd support extending this requirement, I'd like to see some proof.
Mark, in your example you were legal, but I wish there were more citizens like the lady that reported you, it would actually help licensed contractors wouldn't it?
Roger
Roger it was not as if I were legal, I was moving into my own home... Not doing any work... This woman sees any riff-raff (contractors) in the neighborhood and she does permit searches. (which are usualy two months out of date) She's just a bitter woman who hates her nieghbors and uses the DBI as a weapon of choice. Shes one of the design nazis of the local neighborhood association who are out to thwart any construction or modification of anything in our neighborhood. The same woman trims her hedges once a year by force of neighbor intervention. Shes opposed to any contracting legal or otherwise.
Reno back on topic - I have not heard of any study that backs up any benifit of CEU's, Certification, or Licensing of workers. (Licensing of contractors is definately a beinfit)
Absent the results, such a requirement is nothing but an additional burden on the law-abiding... and a gravy train for seminar factories!
I agree! One thing that can be said is that there are people making money through testing and CEU's. Whatever effect they have is debatable. Like I said at the begining of this thread, it is a novel idea. Although 32 hours are required in my state I'm yet to do any. (Nothing solid on what is approved or not yet) But I don't think it will have any dramatic effect.
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-18-2006).]
I think there is a lot of money making going on in the whole code, books and education business. I find it interesting that it costs the same to take some point and click "course" on the internet as it does to go to a real class. Sounds like price fixing to me. "Free" CEUs are getting real hard to come by. I used to be able to get plenty through my IAEI chapter but no more.
Roger thanks great site too start with. I would like to see data to back up states making decisions if CEU work or not. If the CEU's aren’t helping then lets hear your ideal on how too lawfully eliminate the "Trunk operators".
"I used to be able to get plenty through my IAEI chapter but no more."
We still have them at NJEIA meetings, you do pay a reduced fee, but usually an hour at each meeting.
"lets hear your ideal on how too lawfully eliminate the "Trunk operators""
You can do what the some of the EC's in Jersey are doing, turning in every trunk slammer they can find, i think they finally had it, with doing things right, only to have some weekend hacks, that defy the laws, do work in their back yard, i don't blame them, the industry has to help police these things, or it will never get cleaned up.
First its pick-up trucks now its trunks....
Kidding... Trunks are bad.
aphares, it seems the e-mail I sent has returned???
You might have missed it during the tangent Roger and I went on???
Anyway, in it I mentioned that your best bet would be to follow the lead and established example of the regulations for
plumbers in your state. You have an established model law.... Why they have a state-wide license/journeyman registration and electricians don't is beyond me.... (Better lobbyists?)
aphares, I did some reasearch and it seems you have a simular law for plumbers state-wide in your state. And it may be your best bet.
http://www.in.gov/pla/bandc/plumbing/ I think modeling any attempt you make after this set of regulations is your best option. And it will be all too easy to get this rolling with a few well placed letters to both sides of the political sides at play in these types of things. If you get them to work together from the start, your state will be much better off.
If say you got both the Union and Merit shop organizations together from the start (wouldn't that be nice) - they would be more than happy to take over control over entry to the trade through mandatory apprenticeship statewide. And I say from the start, because they have wasted serious amounts of time and money battling for control here - only to come together in the end.
The big part is what to do with everyone like yourself now - everyone has to come to the same standard. People who come in new, and people working now.
That, and with some well place re-edjucation from your consumer board to let people know about the law requiring electricians to be trained and registered with the state, and you might see a demand for more qualified people. Especially if there is a penalty for the consumer, EC or GC who hires the unlicensed or certified/registered. (Something I think is lacking in my own state is any penalty or enforcement.)
Aphares you are welcome.
Mark, back to the Mike Holt link, per you own admission it appears as though it is correct.
Now, I still don't understand how continuing education and crooked contractors go together as you and Reno make reference to, please explain why CE causes, breeds, or supports crooked contractors
Crooked contractors are going to be around with or with out continuing education.
I also don't understand why a bitter neighbor reporting moonlighters (even suspected moonlighters) is a problem, she may be a pain to live next to, but why does she bother you so much? I still see her as being an ally to the licensed contractors.
Whether continuing education makes a better contractor or not may still be out in the hands of the jury, but as Iwire pointed out, it does make people open a book.
I don't mean to be arguing or putting you in a defensive position, but I really don't understand what the problem is.
As far as the CEU providers charging a fee, so what, I have to continuously buy new tools and test equipment to stay where I need to be on a yearly basis.
It's just another cost of doing business that ultimately will be charged to the customer as it is in the books as an overhead expense.
Roger
[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-18-2006).]
Since my last post I have been laughing hysterically.....
The IBEW and ABC could split the cost of a TV ad.
Ad starts with two guys...
"Hi Im Bill" (IBEW)
"And I'm Will" (ABC or other)
(Both) "And we're Electricians!"
(Bill) "You can hire us to work on your home or buissiness."
(Will) "And
you won't be fined $10,000!"
(Both) "Or you could hire Bob..."
(Bob shown removing collapsable aluminum ladder and Home Destructo bags from trunk of Trans Am)
(Bill) "And Bob will burn the place down." (Sad face)
(Will) "And
you'll still be fined $10,000!" (Big Grin)
Roger, feel free to kill my last post there I was loosing contreol and it took me 8 minutes to write....
Now, I still don't understand how continuing education and crooked contractors go together as you and Reno make reference to, please explain why CE causes, breeds, or supports crooked contractors
They are two seperate un-related subjects....
*For the record...
Mark, back to the Mike Holt link, per you own admission it appears as though it is correct.
And my nieghbor, is the freind or ally of no one.... Pure satan there.... Like I said, she (and an Inspector told me this) uses the DBI as a weapon. If she could find a way to harrass the very sun itself she would.
*edit to add for the record[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-18-2006).]
Mark,
And my nieghbor, is the freind or ally of no one.... Pure satan there.... Like I said, she (and an Inspector told me this) uses the DBI as a weapon. If she could find a way to harrass the very sun itself she would.
I actually know a few people like this too, truly friends of the devil, I understand.
Roger
Back on the topic of CEU's, what I fear may happen in my own state is that a bunch of these fly by night schools making "Guaranteed to pass" promises will pop-up, and be legal as they are here for licensing and end-up being bogus give-you-the-answer shops. Whats worse is they will all charge top dollar... Why, because you have to take a course! It wont matter what the content is, or even who it is done by, because it will be the bare minimum from all equally. In Californias case, there does not seem to be that there will be any re-testing, just go get a stamp from A, B, or C.
OK, I'm at fault for "linking" CEU's to matters of integrity. Here's why:
As I see it, the State has little right to regulate commerce. Public Safety- OK, I can see minimum qualifications, bonding, and insurance.
However, going beyond that has been argued by Milton Friedman, Etal..., interferes with the free operation of the market, which will quite efficiently eliminate the incompetent. I agree with this thesis.
Every regulation is put forth with the idea that it will somehow "make things better." Well, for the CEU issue, we now have enough experience to be able to tell if the measures have any effect.
If such cannot be demonstrated, then the State has no right to require them. It has exceeded its' mandate.
The connection between CEU's and crooked contractors is built into the propaganda that an unlicensed contractor is, by definition, unethical. Require CEU's, and the guy without them is now unlicensed, thus lumped in with the unethical.
More to the point, unjustified requirements only add to the burden faced by the law-abiding.... giving the "trunk slammer" an edge. Qhich seems to be quite the opposite of what was intended.
The connection between CEU's and crooked contractors is built into the propaganda that an unlicensed contractor is, by definition, unethical. Require CEU's, and the guy without them is now unlicensed, thus lumped in with the unethical.
What?
Roger
I think Reno is saying a guy who sleeps through a CEU course doesn't suddenly aquire ethics and being good at standardized tests does not guarantee skill in a largely mechanical trade.
I get a chance to watch these guys working around the neighborhood and the worst crook I have seen was licensed. A complaint to the DPBR still didn't make him do a decent or code conforming job. The trunk slammer my neighbor hired to fix the EC's work did a lot better job ... for a tenth the money.
I too think I got reno's point - dare I say it I agree. Simular comparisions are made by where when and who you got your apprenticship from. Or what language you speak or speak at home. I know guys speak Chinese and got thier apprenticeship from "Hard-knocks U" who are fantastic electricians. Just cant take a standardized test in english....
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-18-2006).]
Let me try to help a little here, in jersey many of the inspectors, were noticing a lot of lic. contractors, did not know the current codes, so many of them believed the ceu's for code updates were needed, now; not all the contractors were lacking code know how but a large number were, as was noted in iwire's post, some din't open the book, and the ceu's may help bring them up to date, another benifit of the ceu's classes, is the benifit, of discussing the code issues, with others in your trade, as well as material presented in class, most of us here on ECN had the benifit of these discussions, on the forum, so the question; do ceu's work, can be measured by, did the inspectors find less problems with code issues, since ceu hours have been increased.
[This message has been edited by LK (edited 09-19-2006).]
Well did they?
As for ECN and other forums, I have to admit... I'm a freaky code geek.... If I go to one of those classes - I'll never leave.
My name is Mark Heller, and I'm a Code Geek... there I said it.
I don't think most people have half the work ethic or addiction to it all as some of us here. (Good thing)
If people cant pass inspections - FAIL THEM!
A person who passed a license exam in 75 and has never opened a code book since, (let's say because he has stayed inside a factory somewhere) surly wouldn't pass an inspection today wiring to what he remembered as code at that time.
A one time exam without Continuing Education isn't worth much.
If nothing else, it will make them aware of the fact codes change (which is what most CEU's are as LK says)
Greg, no book testing or classes will make a skilled Mechanic, and as far as the sorry contractor you are talking about, let me say Welcome to FL. (or anywhere really)
This Crook will be the same Continuing Education or not, that is why I question how this subject became part of this thread.
Nobody has said a small licensed contractor working out of his car or pickup is not responsible or slacks in knowledge or workmanship.
Roger
Mark,
I don't think most people have half the work ethic or addiction to it all as some of us here.
very good point.
Those who are active here and are "Code Geeks", would have a very good chance of passing an impromptu code exam thrown at them.
I wonder if ECN could be recognized as an approved CEU course, it should be.
Roger
I am an example of the flip side of this "testing/CEU" question. When I started inspecting I had hundreds of hours of classes and lots of experience in office buildings and computer rooms but there were some things that I could quote chapter and verse about the code requirements of but I couldn't point it out in the room. I have still never seen MI cable.
Guys not curent on code? How can you tell?
Let us imagine a typical scenario: The inspector sees something, and says "that's wrong." Now, what's the sparky going to say? Take your pick:
a) "No it isn't you ignorant paper pusher!"
b) "Really? When did we start requiring....?"
c) "Gee, I didn't know!"
d) "Where's that apprentice?"
e) "I must have forgottem my smart pill that day" or, finally,
f) "We've always done it that way"
I suspect that even the guy who has the entire code memorised isn't going to use choice "a".
Reno:
As an AHJ, I've heard ALL of the above over various instances.
IMHO, CE helps, but it will ONLY help IF the guys that sign-up and pay whatever fees.....PAY ATTENTION.
Like it or not, IT's LAW, and required in NJ to renew your Lic & BP.
Yes, it can be a financial 'gain' for some, but, like LK said, there's a whole lot of work in preparation and obtaining approvals from the Board, and PAPERWORK.
Sure, there may be 'corruption' within the system, after all this is New Jersey. The NJEIA runs a tight ship, the Board can & does spot check; and the results of any 'funny business' can and will result in Lic suspension, revocation, and $$$$ fines for all parties involved.
Time permitting, I have to go back to the top of this thread & absorb the firestorm.
Anyone wishing to carry this further with me, feel free to e-mail me direct. Responses may be 'slow', as Wed is a long day, 8 hrs AHJ & then teach apprentices at Vo-Tech.
John
Johnhlec1@aol.com
OK, as to AHJ's finding less violations....
The major stumbling block lately seems NOT to be NEC related......it seems to be the EC's lack of checking the job before the inspection.
NO, not all EC's, no not all jobs, but....finding five bad GFI's in one house???
Spacing issues (6-12) (>24" walls) kitch counters, etc.???
a quote from today..." I changed three GFI's out the other day, how can these not work"?
Reply..."you are standing next to me while I test them, where's your tester"??
Seems that I should try to get a approved course on procedures.
If that Ec reads this, please don't take it personal, I'm not singling anyone out, and no location or names are mentioned.
John
[This message has been edited by HotLine1 (edited 09-19-2006).]
Aphares,
The Indiana Chapter of IAEI will meet this coming February in Terre Haute. It will be the first Wed through Fri. in February I can give you a lot of information about the past 25 years of electrical licensing in Indiana.
You can contact me direct at alannadon@juno.com
Your email link did not work.
Alan--
[This message has been edited by Alan Nadon (edited 09-24-2006).]
Aphares:
Your e-mail link in your profile don't work
If you want NJ info, e-mail me Johnhlec1@aol.com
John
Let us imagine a typical scenario: The inspector sees something, and says "that's wrong." Now, what's the sparky going to say? Take your pick:
a) "No it isn't you ignorant paper pusher!"
b) "Really? When did we start requiring....?"
c) "Gee, I didn't know!"
d) "Where's that apprentice?"
e) "I must have forgottem my smart pill that day" or, finally,
f) "We've always done it that way"
I have heard all of those, [duck]might have used some too[/duck]!
But those are in response to this.....
Boss/PM:
"I've never heard of anything like that..."
"Just don't worry about it."
"Since when?"
Or Designer/Architect:
"I've never heard of anything like that..."
"Just don't worry about it."
"Since when?"
Constantly edjucating your superiors can be a drag!