I was working today installing RNC conduit underground to feed an existing built-in pool electrical system. The existing EMT was run along a brick wall and had come apart at one of the couplings, not to mention it was rusty and looked like hell. Upon further review, the EMT was used as the EGC for the pool. No seperate equipment conductor was run. Therefore, we had swimming pool equipmnt that was not grounded, or bonded. Bad news no matter what.

Anyhow, as I was using the rented ditchwith to make my trench when low and behold I started to smell gas. I had hit a 1" black plastic pipe that was being used to feed the pool water heater. Ut-oh. It was buried, oh, about 12-14" below the grade. I went inside the house, told the homeowners what had happened, and tried to turn a gas valve off myself. But there was no shutoff for this particular run. Now the gas company gets a call and a service man has to come out to the house to shutoff the main.

I called a few plumbers that I know to "bail me out" but one was on vacation, another couldn't get there because of another job he was on, and another said he couldnt get there until Monday.

I felt about 'this big' having to tell a good, repeat customer that she wouldn't have gas until Monday morning at the earliest.

How would you have handled this?

Hope you called in a locating service.

No, I didn't. And that is where I made my 1st mistake. I realize this.

We hit a gas line that the locate missed and the backhoe driver just bent it over like a garden hose and that shut off the gas ... pretty much. You couldn't smell it anymore. He said the line is designed that way but that could just be an opinion. We taped it up and finished the digging at the other end until the gas guys came.
Nobody had that line on their plats so we got away with it.

sounds like you just made an honest but dumb mistake..

.like there could be a smart mistake eh?

being upfront about it doesn't always sit well with some folks, but you can look in the mirror in the morning !

aside from all the other costs you have, maybe you could offer to put them up in a hotel / motel ....if they are a good customer for you.

honestly, you may have an issue with not getting a markout. you are in NJ, right? they don't take to kindly to it here.

2nd, you should have bit the bullet and called any plumber that would have come out today. it would have cost you more right now, but what about the long run.

You could do the hotel, but if the customer has kids, it's still a big inconvenience.

best would have been to not rely on a plumber you know, and just get one out now. Especially because it sounds like you are going to hit them with extra work (beyond the original scope) in order to fix that emt and bring it up to code.

the extra work would be easier to digest without being told that they won't have gas till monday. (gas water heater? stove? dryer? all of the above?)

if you have to, get someone out there tomorrow. it will cost you, but your customer will appreciate it more and may actually hire you again in the future.

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 09-09-2006).]

Well, that's what happens when you use substandard materials... plastic for gas... and I would emphasize this to the property owner. If the run was galvanized steel, this likely would not have happened.

It seems everyone has become blaze' when it comes to gas. Years ago, gas systems were spec'd out using the strongest possible materials. Now I see copper and flexible lines in resi work, where its too easy for a HO to knick it when hanging up a picture or shelf. Problem is, gas hasn't gotten any less dangerous over time.

Ditto for your conduit, not too late to switch to galvanized RMC. Of course, many will talk about the increased costs of using "extreme" or commerical materials, but a home is the single biggest investment most people will ever make in their lifetimes, so what's a few extra dollars to go for the best? In this case, they're probably not starving since they have a HEATED pool.

In any event, since natural gas pressures is less than 1/2 of 1 pound PSI, and the gas line is crapy plastic, you could've easily repaired the line temporarily (or perhaps even permanently) while still in service... just cut out the damaged section of the line, prep the end, and glue a cap on it. Or you could've made up a 1" section of PVC with a cap, and use a band coupling attach to the pressure end of the line. Again, you could blow through a straw much harder than natural gas flows through lines.

I think you guys here chastizing him for not getting a markout are being totally unfair. The only thing a markout would've done is cover his rear. It wouldn't have prevented this; the same thing would've happened either way because considering the way the electric was installed, permits were never filed because there's no way this would've passed. So what makes you think gas permits were pulled? A lot pool work is unpermited. So much for the markout then.

Since you're cleaning up the obvious mess left by the pool contractor, this is something else you can add to the blame list.

There is also this issue of why the gas line wasn't buried deeper. You might want to check with your local code. Ditto for the plastic pipe. You might not be in the wrong at all here.

Joe

I was under the assumption that locating services (USA here in CA.)did not locate cust. owned piping.Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Joe

What is wrong with underground plastic gas piping? It has been used for many years and is far superior to metallic piping. Galvanized steel piping has never been approved for underground installations. Well I guess you could use it if you wanted to take the time to prime and wrap all of the piping. Metallic underground gas piping must have an approved plastic coating on it.

I also disagree with you comment about RNC being inferior for underground installations. In my opinion RMC is an inferior product for use underground. I have seen RMC almost completely destroyed from the soil within in a few years in my area. If I run into situation where deep trenching is not feasible I usually recommend Ocal or =.

Curt

NORCAL

That is what I was thinking when reading the comments about calling a locating service. In our area USA (Underground Service Alert) only locates utility owned systems. Privately owned systems on private property are fair game. I always advise the customer that I will not be responsible for damage to any underground piping if they can not provide a location.

Curt

This post reminds me of a policy I have been using as of late. Any time we will be drilling into walls and ceilings, cutting walls, ceilings, floors etc, or trenching I first make it a point to locate all the utility shutoffs, just in case, so we can shut it off in a hurry ti minimize damage. Of course it wouldn't have helped in this case.
One thing you might have done was cut the line at the tee and plugged it so you could turn on the gas for the house and worry about getting the pool line fixed later.

"I think you guys here chastizing him for not getting a markout are being totally unfair."

If he is in New Jersey, he is required to get the mark out, and if he is digging in the back yard, he should have asked for, mark out of entire property, we do it for every dig job, no exceptions, anything that requires more then our hand to dig, also he may want to read the exclusions on his liability policy, for any dig work, if you are doing the digging and there is other then utility owned piping, it's your responsibility to locate the pipe, not the owners, there have been plenty of dig accidents, where utility piping has run thru back yards with easements.

No one is being hard on anyone, they are just pointing out the issues in digging.

We call locating services for ground rods.

For pools, how about using RMC you only need 6 inches, better installation and less digging.

Was there a tracer wire with the gas pipe?
In NZ there is a 2.5 mm² yellow wire warped around the pipe for tracing the actual pipe route.

if not, it makes it impossible to trace.

rodalco, standard practice here in NJ is to install the trace wire.

now forget the legalities of it all. plastic pipe for pool heater gaslines are here to stay. UL listed and code approved. So while they may be inferior, too bad. They were a little shallow and that is his only out in this situation.

but the key thing here is that he was feeling really bad about telling a good customer that they won't have gas til monday. this is where he really went wrong.

don't worry about the plumber's you know. None of them appear to give a rat's ass about you at this point. Except for the one who is out of town on vacation, there were no excuses for not getting there late last night or really early this morning. Either one of the 2 plumbers could have cut out of their other job and headed over to perform a fix. or at the least, disconnected the pool heater gas line and got the rest of the house turned on.

or call a plumber that offers emergency service.

i'm not trying to bash shock by any means, it's just this situation that we are talking about.

If I was the customer I would expect a plumber to be found.

If the contractor did not find one, I would find one and expect to be reimbursed.

"or call a plumber that offers emergency service."

We just went thru this last month, working in basement at retail store, noticed the water pipe near the panel was in poor condition, we called the owners attention to the pipe, he comes down to look at it, and bangs on it, and the pipe opens, water all over, we shut it down, he calls his plumber, with no return calls, he tries emergency plumbers, the man was there in less then an hour, the customer thanked us for bringing it to his attention, now if while we were working there we hit the pipe, we would being doing the same, calling an emergency plumber.

Let's step back, and look at the way things are supposed to be handled.

You are expected to do the best you can. This includes taking reasonable precautions ("due diligence.")

Yet, sometimes 'it happens.' At that point, you have a duty to minimise the amount of harm done, and 'make it right' ASAP.

Only after this do you get to worry about payment, change orders, assigning blame, etc.

So, in this example... you ding a pipe. You maybe shut off the gas, call a plumber, get it fixed.... and carry on. If you have a proper emergency patch kit (they actually exist, and can resemble anything from a dent-repair kit to a roll of glorified duct tape), and time becomes an issue, you might consider making such a patch... but only until it can be fixed right.
You keep the customer posted on this throughout the entire drama, get your job done, and everyone is happy at the end.

You'll lose money on that job? Perhaps. Yet, I've had a few folks become loyal customers after seeing how I responded to an "oops" moment.

[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 09-10-2006).]

Just remember- It takes 3 "at-a-boys" to make up for 1 ......
In other words most people will spread talk about how you messed things up faster then they will talk about how great you were.
I would do what ever it took to get the gas line fixed ASAP - then deal with the repercussions later.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 09-11-2006).]

In TX, the locator will not mark private lines.

So, it this part of the country you would have done nothing wrong. Yeh, get it fixed but have the plumber bill the homeowner. You might split the costs.

We've put it in our u/g work contracts that we're not responsible for lines that are not located. If it's under 30' long we dig it by hand due to all the sprinkler lines.

Rigid does not hold up well to the effects of chlorine gas from the pool. It's much better than EMT but not as good as PVC. Anything below 3' and 10' horizontally from the pool is corroded in about 5 years(especially aluminum bell boxes).

Thank you for all of your replies on this matter. I have read each one and will consider them all next time I go trenching. Now a quick update.

I did get in touch with a plumber who did go to the house this morning to make all necessary repairs. I met him there this morning before he got started. He got all the gas services back up and running and all is well. As far as billing goes, he just told me I owe him one. The customer was not really too upset as I have done work for them before and this has been the only problem I've encountered thus far.

Just out of curiosity, just how far down should this gas line have been? Shouldn't it at least be 3' underground or at the very least below the frost line?

shock, you did right.

i think 36" here in NJ, possibly 48". Not positive though. I just know that they are alway below us.

Good to hear, things worked out well for you, hope you don't think we were being tough on you, but this is a good topic, for others to learn from.

"get it fixed but have the plumber bill the homeowner. You might split the costs."

I like my customers, and value them they are my golden egg, when i break it i pay for it.

"We've put it in our u/g work contracts that we're not responsible for lines that are not located."

In this part of the country, it's the contractor digging that is responsible for locating the lines, we call line mark for the utilities, and we check the rest of the property before any digging is started, If you read your contractors policy, underground work, has a lot of exclusions.

Every time I visit this site I learn something. I posted about what happened to me for the sole purpose of learning other ways of dealing with something like this. The more opinions the better. That's how we all learn and that's why I posted about what happened to me. No, I don't think anyone is being tough on me. Sometimes though when I post I am beyond stressed-out and can be unreasonable. That just goes with the territory I suppose.

You would think they should have a shut off on the line. Also I was thinking the same about the locator service not marking customer owned lines. I seen customer owned lines with tracer wires attached. I don't know if they can locate a plastic line without a tracer wire.

ShockMe77, I feel your pain.....

I once "hole-sawed" a 2 1/2" section out of a 1" galvy gas line. I was on a remodel site, it was loud, and I did check under where I was drilling. However I didnt check good enough, (used my hand instead of getting under there and looking) and didn't hear the hissing, or smell gas until I removed the 'plug' I made with hole saw. At which point it was a whooshing noise and potent gas smell with a 2 1/2 " gap in the pipe. I was fortunate there was a plumber on site, and got it back together after several hours and a hefty change order / back charge. Things happen, lessons are learned....

I'm just gonna re-emphasize what others have said.

Most plasic gas lines have a "Ground" wire, usually a yellow insulated #8 solid run with them, (I think it is in thier codes to do so? I believe the pipe is to be yellow too?) and you can tone it out yourself. Utility companies wont mark past their meter, or entrance to the property. So in this case you just you are left to either hire out someone to trace it, or do it in house if you have the equipment, or rent it. But when it comes to plastic water, or irrigation lines your are screwed. So when in doubt - Hand dig.... Or better yet, "Trenching by Others" located on the contract in bold print.

I would have called a 24 hour service company to get thier butts out there on the spot, sometimes you cant be stingy.

Why would a gas line be below the frost line?gas may freeze but not at 32 f . The main lines aren't below frost line, why would a private line?