Good Afternoon.

Hers a kinda wierd question for ya, i dont know if this is better here or in the NEC section, so ill try here first. I am currently working on a kitchen at my bosses hose and he has a 120/240v stove and the receptacle is screwed to the floor and the cable is brought up thru the bottom of it. My boss has some idea that when the work that I am responsible for is inspected the ahj will have a problem with the receptacle being on the floor, although i have not worked on it nor can i find anything in the code about a required height off the floor, any ideas on where to look for a min height? thanks for the help, Rob

[This message has been edited by DetroiterRob (edited 07-02-2006).]

There is no requirement that the receptacle be on the wall at all.... in a box, sitting atop the floor, is perfectly OK. And, since the receptacle is "atop" and not "in" the floor, it need not be a floor receptacle.

Now, I'm not saying that this arrangement makes me happy. Truth be known, there are very few stove installations that I am happy with. The situation is not made any better by the lack of space behind the stove! (After all, folks want the stove against the wall- not pushed out 3").

Two things to take care of: The cord and the box.
The box needs to be anchored, and not sliding around.
The wire supplying the box needs support and protection. If the wire is Romex, this means a proper fitting where it enters the box.

Is it horizontal face up? Could it count as a work surface?


Could the receptical be looked at as a means of disconnect, and not acessible? Or isolated? Or not accessible to wiring method? i.e. having to remove a finish to move the stove, or buried under it.


Here you go.... Is it subject to physical damage, and not listed for the purpose? The AHJ could look at mop water and dirt as a source of damage....


Sorry thats all I got....

I don't know of anything in the NEC that prohibits a face-up range receptacle, and I've installed them that way and had them pass inspection.

406.4(E) goes out of the way to specifically prohibit mounting a receptacle face-up on a counter top, this would lead me to believe that it is generally allowed and only restricted in specific instances.

However, from a practical standpoint: I used to do apartment maintenance where many of the range receptacles were face-up on the floor. The surface of the receptacles tended to get completely coated with grease and dirt and dust. If the plug was ever removed, the receptacle would have to be taken apart and cleaned before the plug could be re-inserted.

-John

Another one.....

haha... Oh man, the difference a little context makes! I don't do much residential work and had always read this as "install on the wall with the ground-prong-up (EG 'smiley face' upside down)". Why would anyone even THINK of placing a receptacle face-up on a countertop?

As to the location of the receptacle- placement can be dependant on the stove. Some stoves have more or less space than others- you almost have to know what particular stove is going to be installed to make sure you put the receptacle in the right place. Considering the amount of grease and boiling water and all else that will be spilled off that stove in its lifetime, placing the receptacle on the floor sounds like a BAD idea, regardless of whether or not the code specifically prohibits it.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-03-2006).]

Come on People !!! Stop over engineering this !
We're talking about a stove in a persons house not a restaurant.
"A work surface " How much prepping do you do BEHIND your stove ?
Not accessible ? pull the drawer, out reach in and unplug it.
Protection from floor cleaning equipment ?
OK who here pulls their range out to run the floor buffer behind it ?
Grease and BOILING water ? I can't ever recall anyone spilling boiling water BEHIND the stove . on it ,in front of it , maybe down the side. I have pulled out my fair share of ranges and have never come across ones that are coated in grease. I have seen roaches, mouse crap , I even found a dead mouse once.
I have installed the outlets on the floor and will continue to do so. Have you ever paid attention to the design of the back of the stove ? You do not have a lot of room for that big range cord. I think there is an issue with protection of the cord. I did short mine out when sliding the range in.
I don't mean to be a jerk and point fingers at any one person and if I offended anyone I do apologize, but it seems that as professionals, we ( electricians) like to take any issue and " make" the code fit.
Sometimes we must remember to use common sense and not make a mountain out of an ant hill.
OK I'm stepping off the soap box and waiting for the back lash from my comments made here.

I am not going to give you grief, I say screw the darn receptacle to the floor and move on.

Bob

Who would want recepticals face up? You have no idea how many times I have been asked for just that in both residential and commercial over the last 15 years.....

Steve, luckyshadow.... Note the OP is being questioned by the boss as to why it might not pass, which is why I replied with questions as the premis to the codes posted, otherwise its fine, barring the AHJ not feeling the same way....

There is no min hieght, unless the ADA has a play.....

Where I am, a receptical behind or for that matter under it are not considered accessible unless it is clear that it complies with 422.33, or on wheels. (Seen on with a hatch in the oven for access...) Otherwise it goes in the cabinet adjacent. Right next to the gas shut off if any....

Neither mountain, or mole hill....

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 07-03-2006).]

thanks for the input, i did not find anything wrong with the installation personally, although when it was installed and the boss was putting his fridge back next to the stove he did crash the recep housing and is taped togther, dont worry ill be replacing it on wednesday...ill try and get some pics for amusement, i also have some pics of the mess i cleaned up today at the house from when he removed the wall the first time. also i believe that when i replace the box ill put it up onto the wall somewhat so it tucks into the back of the stove better, along with a peice of EMT to protect the romex. thanks for the help, rob

Maybe you should try it in residential.

It seems to work fine as 99% of them in this area are face up on the floor.

I don't know what you guys do on the west coast that finds it's way into the outlets under a range but I don't see it happening here.

We all should install equipment in a way we are comfortable with but at the same time we also need to remember that 'our way' is not the only way.

BTW If I put a range receptacle in the cabinet I bet I would get failed by the inspector. (no real code just a "we don't do that here" rule)

Edit: It just dawned on me that Mark may be thinking a 120 volt 20 amp outlet.

I believe we are talking about the 50 amp 250 volt surface mount range receptacles.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-04-2006).]

Yes Bob in the context of the what you quoted me on, yes, I was refering to Steves comment on countertops...

But back to the range outlet, don't think I have ever seen one installed on the floor, doubt I ever will around here. Just one of those interpetation type items. Simluar to those removable panels on Sub-Zero reffers that allow it to be un-plugged without unscrewing and moving it, provided you have put the receptical in its prescribed 6"X6" area described in the instructions as access to disconnect. Many other appliances around here are looked at in the same way. Dishwashers, trash compactors, ovens, insta-hots, under-cab reffers and even microwaves if installed fastened in place. Most find the outlet in adjacent cab, not that its required, or the only way, just the way we do it around here. But if you folk back in mAssachusettes (Where I grew up BTW) wanna lift a range to unplug it, more power to ya.

Anyway, like I said earier... "Note the OP is being questioned by the boss as to why it might not pass, which is why I replied with questions as the premis to the codes posted, otherwise its fine", install anyway you see fit, so long as it doesn't clearly violate a code, or common sense...

Or maybe I try this again with smilies.

"Is it horizontal face up? Could it count as a work surface?"

Oh, I should also repeat.... Neither mountain, or mole hill....

And go figure, obviously subject to damage, it got smashed.....

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 07-04-2006).]

Mark really, your way is not the only code compliant way.


I have no doubt it is much more wide spread than MA. But why on earth would I lift the range, you pull out the drawer as specifically allowed by the NEC. (You posted it yourself.)


Why is that section there if it is not to be used?

314.27(C) does not apply.

314.27(C) applies to outlets in the floor not outlets on the floor.

We are taking about a surface mounted outlet not a flush mounted outlet.

406.4(E) Receptacles in Counter tops and Similar Work Surfaces in Dwelling Units.

Are you saying the FLOOR under a range is a work surface similar to a countertop?

I think that is a real stretch. (more than a stretch it just plain does not apply)

As the OP was asking about code compliance not how Mark would do it the bottom line (IMO) is it is a NEC compliant installation.

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-04-2006).]

Bob, you're still not getting the joke and the fact that there is a non-existant conflict here.

Is it horizontal face up? Could it count as a work surface? Answer: No But who knows.... They could be very short.... So no 406.4 would not apply....

Could the receptical be looked at as a means of disconnect, and not acessible? Or isolated? Or not accessible to wiring method? i.e. having to remove a finish to move the stove, or buried under it.

Answer: Maybe That depends solely on the stove, and IF it has access through a drawer, or other way, many do not.

And I'll say this for the third time....

[/b]Otherwise its fine[/b], install anyway you see fit, so long as it doesn't clearly violate a code, or common sense...

With that Happy 4th....

Not trying to bust your chops here, just asking a question.

I have never seen an electric floor standing range that did not have a removable drawer.

Do they make such a thing?

I know or I think most Gas ranges do not have the drawer as that is the broiler on the Gas ranges.

No I am not getting the joke, but have a great and safe 4th of July. I am sure you have some good food planed.

Bob

Floor mounted stove recpt are perfectly legal. Next to flush mounted low in the wall and by low I mean all the down as far as possible the reason is so the stove can be pushed all the back tight tothe wall. that is why almost all stoves come with a space back side bottom and the draw is shallow.

From the thread "Back to the Boss's House"


DetroiterRob
Member posted 07-10-2006 08:15 PM
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back into the kitchen, now that the range outlet is straightend out (ill get ya some pics soon) there are 2 double hung small bay windows on one wall, about 32"wide and 16-18" deep with a nice copper tinned roof on the outside and yellow pine trim on the inside, a very nice looking setup once its completed.. the bosses wife wants to have one or two lights inside each window. i was thinking of either those halogen puck lights or 4" cans with an eyeball trim or somthing similar, anyone have a better idea, or reccomendations on a reliable product for the area, once the drywall is up and everything finished this is one job i dont want to revisit anytime soon... thanks
Rob

2, 4" mini cans are by far better than a puck light imo.