Again.....Some more


NORCAL has been good enough to send some info to us.






DAS has also extended the date for testing another 6 months. Although the date for certification remains at Jan 1, 2006, you don't have to take the test until the end of the year. See this for some doublespeak at its finest

After nearly 6 years, this is what the the law read:
"3099.2. (a) (1) Persons who perform work as electricians shall become certified pursuant to Section 3099 by January 1, 2005. After January 1, 2005, uncertified persons may not perform electrical work for which certification is required."

I guess there's no reason to rush into anything, is there?
When will it all end?





[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-10-2006).]

The key to this getting off the ground is ENFORCMENT!

The CSLB has washed thier hands of the issue (they never had a hand in it), as they have had budget and staffing cuts over the last few years to deal with. And it is not thier law to enforce.

Building Officials I have talked to also have little interest in getting involved in labor laws, they have a hard enough time with code enforcement. And it is not thier law to enforce.

WC, liability insurance, and bonding companies wont do it unless there is a law saying they have to, so it is not thier law to enforce. And they will sue to get out of it...

As this is really a labor law, would it not be these guys to enforce it? Well, where are they? I have not seen any wirey office guy in jack-boots and a badge asking me if my papers are in order - yet. As this office is only a year old, and probhably has a a dozen people covering a whole state, and seem to have broad interest in other topics I doubt anyone will ever see them.

Anyway, the day stories start to circulate about people lossing thier right to work in thier chosen trade, or being told they have to go back to school in order to do so, things will happen. Otherwise, nothing is going to happen on this. Employers have no fear, there is no real penalty for the employer. As mentioned before, they might not be able to have trainees or apprentices on the payrole if caught, but who is enforcing that?

What has happened? An on-going joke IMO. 6 years of non-deadlines and post-ponements. Little or no attention to the major flaws in the law, and several law suits to correct some of the very heinous discrepancies in it at the very beggining. Many EC's see the law as unenforcable for a lot of reasons. And the ones who did recently try to comply with it have had several problems. Non-interest from employees who's responcability it is to get certified. The ones who did, got offered more money from other EC's attempting to comply with the law. The total lack of entry level labor available to comply with it. All said, for the companies who tried to comply it has been a burden, and slightly inflated the labor market. The companies who didn't went on as usual. For the employees who tried to comply, it has been time, and money out of thier pocket. And a lot of them, myself included, are saying, "For what!"

"Anyway, the day stories start to circulate about people lossing thier right to work in thier chosen trade, or being told they have to go back to school in order to do so, things will happpen."

Almost the same words, said here in Jersey back in 1962, what happened, the lic law went in effect, and everyone had to test,or go back to school.

This is what Washington State has, unless we have something simular, we may as well forget about it..... I assume NJ has some sort of penalty, and enforcement policy?

Enforcemnt is a wild guess in California....

I can only but agree guys,
This has dragged on and on and seems to be starting like the never-ending story.
The shame to a degree about this, is the fact that it will only be the honest EC's that will comply with this, the rest will just carry on as if nothing had even happened.

Mike,

I can understand what they are going thru, the lic. law went in Jersey in 1962, and the enforcement just started last year, 44 years to enforce a law, it is beyond funny, they just figured out, that they needed to let, the local enforcement agencies, understand the laws, concerning consumer affairs, and lic laws, in order for them to enforce them, gee i guess 44 years is pretty fast considering some of the clowns we have down in trenton, i was watching an assembly meeting, on PBS when they were discussing the short fall of funding for the state, they actually were proud of chasing out business from the state, and even more proud, of finding ways to make the tax paying public suffer, so don't dispare cal is not the only goverment lost in space.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 06-10-2006).]

Help me out here, I don't quite understand this. Does everybody in California have to go through an apprentice program regardless of the number of years they have put in the trade? Don't you guys already have j-man licenses or Masters licenses? I understand the part about testing, if they never had a testing system in place, but sending an old hand back to square one seems a bit unjust to me.

Oh where to begin, and where to end?

Before Electrical Apprenticeship was not mandatory. There were several ways to enter the trade. Two seperate forms of formal apprenticeship via IBEW or other Merit shops and Associations. Then the many various informal apprenticeships AKA OJT. Or for that matter no training at all - just get a job, and do what you're told.....

As far as calling yourself an Electrician business wise there were two options and still are. Be un-licensed and be limited to under $500 of totalproject contract price, or be licensed by the CSLB . (They enforce the B&P side of the law, and license all construction contractors state-wide, with exceptions for certain telecom, and security contractors, and of couse the oil and gas industry.... For Electricians that license would be a C-10)

Then enter AB-931 in 1999, and its many incarnations afterwards. Which mandated apprenticeship, training, certification and continuing edjucation, and registration of the Employees of C-10 licensed contractors by the DAS , who under the DIR enfor Labor laws. Thier Electrician certification program has been a rusty thorn ever since IMO! Slow, mis-directed, ineffective and agenda ridden. I guess I'll stop there.

The enforcement thing is news to me, since I have a mole buried deep in the DAS.

My latest info was there still just concentrating on getting the thing off the ground. Everything else is on hold.

There is no active enforcement.

I can tell you the penalty and that is prohibited from taking the test for 5 years.

I have heard rumors of maverick (I could use more flowery language here)local AHJ's asking for cert. cards, but as far as I know they have no authority to do so. I don't have any more details as to any consequences of such situations.

Local AHJ's will not officially enforce this unless two things happen.
1. The State tells them to. Major whinning here if no money is given to AHJ.
2. Local City or County passes ordinance to require it. I could see LA doing it, but for the most part the local jurisdictions will ignore it.

I have asked people myself if they passed the test, but that was only to make converstion.

Another big question with no answer: How do you renew it? It would be nice to know what kind of classes will be accepted, now that is in force. Unofficially I have heard that almost anything related to electrical will be accepted. So if you take a class or seminar - save your certificates or some evidence.

I will get an update from my mole and let you know.

I had my mole removed, they froze it off. then I found out you can do it yourself. Oh wait, that was a wart.

The melinoma that I call from time to time told me some wierd jazz about denial of insurability as a method of enforcement, but then again that particular cancer has out and out lied to me in the past.

Anyway, I like many others have wondered about this continuing edjucation thing - not much on that yet - but seeing that my card expires on the 28th of THIS month, I had better get cracking!

What the regulations say....

"relevant" what does that mean? Especially, "under penalty of perjury". What is relevant to me, may not be relevant to them....

Spending 32 hours in the chatroom on ECN should be good enough

Seriously though... There's ALOT thats simply 'relevant'. Take a PLC class from Allen Bradley, go see Joe Tedesco at a seminar, spend 32 hours reading Mike Holt books... Go watch the Home Depot "How to Install a Ceiling Fan" demo... (maybe not that last one.. ) But the Depot guy would be an "education provider" while giving instruction which would be relevant to our trade.. It doesn't say the instruction has to be useful, but it seems to fit the letter of what they want

Sorry your melonoma turned out to be benign.
Mine is exremely malignant in a good way.

Renewal:
On the back burner since all certs obtained prior to 01/01/06 start the reset clock to 01/01/06. Since the first certs don't come due 'till '09, no big hurry. You know what that means with this crowd. Wait to the last minute. Can you say "another extension?"

Enforcement:
The parties listed in the flyer in the OP, are being sought out by the DAS to inform them of the law. The language in the flyer is a bit misleading. Nothing more at this time.

All the above is not officially released and plausible deniability invoked. wink wink

I have sent the LA office of DAS several emails about where to get the "continuing education", and just what courses are acceptable.

Their response is what follows the "period" at the end of this sentance and my name.


Steve

Well if they do it like a lot of states, the courses must be approved, i spent 34 hours in class, sign in, sign out, have picture id, and current Lic., one whole week, and about $1,200 in course fees, you must have proof of hours attended, and it's your task, to make sure you have all records in order, good luck!

A few years back I studdied and received my master electrical contractors license, Then later I wanted to become an inspector. which I am now certified.( the ICC and the IAEI) We thought about re-locating to Florida it took six months of paper work to be certified in the state of Florida.
So don't give up.

Florida didn't give me any credit for IAEI/ICBO 2A, 2B or 2C certification. I needed to get the equivilent SBCCI certifications before I could apply for my license.

OK now, THIS is the FIRST notification I have recieved from the DAS.

This is the only time that I know of that the actually attempted to contact C-10 contractors directly.



Note the date..... This has been going on for a long time, and many of us know about it only by word of mouth.

There were some notices in the CSLB newsletter that I got, plus have same notice you posted. (Was thinking about scanning it, thanks for doing so).

Ya mean this one in 2003?
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/clcwtr2003.pdf

A little question if I may:
How many reminders have there been sent out since this started?.
There comes a point when sending out reminder after after reminder, becomes futile, as there will be those that will just file the thing in the Out bin.
In my own opinion, those that have a need to be certified, should be by now, they have had ample time to get with the program.
Anything less, just screams, I can't be bothered, I have no respect for the trade I work in.

We received the same letter as "E57" did (the one he posted recently).


My Primary question would be:
Since most of my Tech. Studies have been done by "Self-Study" methods, will independent studies still qualify for Continued Edu-mication Credits?
(how would one prove of this, other than presenting text books, etc., or going on a tech. information Bore-A-Thon!?).

Scott 35

I Florida you can use online services like Red Vector for CEUs. That is basically self study. You get several paragraphs to read and then take a little quiz. I burned out 8 hours of CEUs in about an hour and a half last year but I really just took the quizzes. It was moldy old stuff.

Trumpy, that letter is the ONLY official correspondence that I have seen. That 2003 Newsletter from the CSLB shows up quarterly in the form of junkmail, if at all. And if you look at it, it's not exactly screaming pertinance. The CSLB has no hand in this law.

To my knowledge that letter is the first time the DAS, a department that has no real contact with the trade, has done what they should have done from the beginning, get all of our addresses from the CSLB and send a letter in mass mailing. Something that every bonding, insurance, tool, and office supply company seems to be able to do with a data-base available from the CSLB with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of every contractor in the state.

Otherwise over the years, it has been by word of mouth, generated from things like this. Mired in political content from day one, it was the only real information about this for a long time. So political that we can barely touch the topic here....

constructionweblinks

The Union

Merit associations

In the early days, mostly things like this...

And an organization called FLAC, who's web site does not seem to be up any longer, and one of my own that I have been asked not to link to here from ECN due to political content. (Which I am OK with... As I rather enjoy the non-political ideas of this site.) Anyway my point was, that until recently, the only way you may have known about it was from the newsletters of organizations and associations that not everyone is privy to, and have thier own agendas. Then word of mouth after that. But NOTHING OFFICIAL from the agency of our government running this fiasco to the masses. Even until recently, the website of thiers, that everyone has been guiding people to for official information has been lacking a lot of real information, and for many things, still is. Like enforcement, the coninuing edjucation requirement, and the fact that even the many postponements are published elsewhere first...

I guess we will have to wait for information from Sandsnow's "Mole"......

I received the same "Reminder"

How in the heck can you send a "Reminder" when there was never any notice sent in the first place? I've never received anything as an EC previously and as a Cert Electrician, I've heard absolutely nothing since my card came in the mail > 3 yrs ago

Another thing that I noticed is that to get info or even contact info, you must go to the DAS website. Does that mean that you must have an internet connection and web abilities to be an EC?? I know guys that don't even know how to turn a computer on and off.

Scott, they also for some time had a phone number to call for information (a voicemail recording), that also refered you to the website.... But the only way to get that phone number was from the website, only to be reffered to the website again. It had the same recording for years.

(415)703-4917
It has been only slightly modified, it still reffers you to the website. (Spainish option, and some detial about what you might owe in money.) But offers another number to call (415)703-4919, and you can leave a message, I doubt anyone has ever recieved a return call from it about any question they might have had. It's a black hole.........

Or you can do what I did on a few occassions, (If you're in town, e-mail me I tell you a good place to park.) Show up in person at thier office, and harrass the secretary for information, who at first reffers you to the website, but will then be very forthcoming in the fact that they have no idea about some of the many things still to be covered.

Or: (I have had some luck with this too)
Call or write thier main office.

San Francisco operational services
455 Golden Gate Avenue, 10th floor
San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 703-4920
(415) 703-5477 (fax)

Or for that matter any of thier other offices.... http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/das_offices.htm

But I warn you now, any information that you do get, may be sparse, misleading, or inaccurate. Because they just don't know.... (That is after you get past them refferring you to the website.) Truthfully, and I don't think it is just my sole opinion anymore, they have no clue what they are doing. I used to think that the lack of information was part of the conspiracy, (It still might be* ) but really, these people are idiots, and they are toying with our futures.

* At this point anyone without an application in before Dec 30,2005, has to become an Electrician Trainee, at the cost of ~$500 a semester for several years, or go back to being an apprentice in an approved program, for COMMERCIAL WORK ONLY. General Journeyman

But you still have time to limit yourself, possibly for good, to residential only, as a "Residential Journeyman". Otherwise you would have to become an "ET", or apprentice, to do commercial work.

IMO you are an Electrician, or you are not! This division of Commercial / Residential is bogus. (The difference lays in the customer, and depending on local codes, the material, not the skill.) I could say more but would enter politics specific only to San Francisco, from what I understand.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 06-18-2006).]

This late notice, but it is on the website. It doesn't have a direct link from the Elect. Cert. Page.

Informational meeting DAS's electrician certification unit
Date June 19, 2006
Time 10:00 am - 2:00 pm
Place California State Building
28 Civic Center Plaza
Santa Ana, CA
Room – 850

It was under the DAS meeting schedule.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/DASMeetings.html#ce

It would have been nice to see a notice on the elect. cert. page, but that would make too much sense. My "mole" told me about it, but I was out of town all weekend.

To e57:
You guys know everything I know.

To Scott 35:
While self study courses are valid, they should not be permitted for the entire quantity of hours required. Just my opinion. In spite of all the State "stuff" that has happened with this program, the continuing education remains the one good thing that can come from this regulation or law. I think the self-study thing could be circumvented by too many people.

I know someone who does on-line coursework, (Creates and Teaches that is) for U of Pheonix. (It's now or was reffered to as "distance learning"?) And getting an idea of how that operated, vs some of the other stuff I have heard about that type of course work, it could work? The same person taught me a little about "Just-in-time-knowledge". A concept of creating bite-sized lesson plans for specific tasks. I have been trying it over the last few years and it seems to work. But thats a different topic....


However, we are talking about the notoriously slow to act DAS of the State of California. Although continuing education is mandated by the legislation, (The labor code portion) the regulation protion of enacting any of it is anyones guess right now. They have to go back to the Legislature to modify the Labor Code, but they do not for any regulation, they could re-write them tomorrow. (Not that I expect them to act that quickly) What I am trying to say is that it all subject to radical change at thier whim. And all of that is subject to the DAS, and these people, the CAC .

It took them a few years to write tests, and rewrite them, and about 5 years to write 2 curriculums, one for Residential, and Commercial. (Cant find them on-line anymore - first incarnations were sparse) Not to mention the fact that they spent the better part of the last six years trying to get rid of apprenticeship programs, community colleges and technical schools that they deemed unworthy, I doubt on-line education will be thier thing..... Although many got to keep thier programs, I doubt they will allow training to be provided by some of the many fly-by-night "Get-your-license" type schools out there. (Which I think is a good thing)

So, I'll wager several postponements at the last minute over the next few years, before the final word on this.

Note that the words "Educational Provider" are capitolized here , in the same way they are here . You know, in that "Party of the First Part" method......

My mole reports:
The update of the test to the 2002 NEC is in the works, shooting for the fall of this year.

Hopefully the renewal issue will get put onto the agenda. Once it's on the agenda, it stays there until resolved. There are people involved who are pushing for the renewal and continuing education to be firmed up.

Enforcement. This will probably have to go back to the legislature. Since nothing was written into the reg's and no one wants to do it, someone will have to be mandated to do it. There is a rumor of some GC's writing a requirement for certified electricians into their contracts. Unsubstantiated, but hard to believe all the same. Likely it is on Public money jobs

"The update of the test to the 2002 NEC is in the works, shooting for the fall of this year."

About a year late.....

If they plan to test using the 2002 NEC, maybe they'll change this too.

From the "California Code of Regulations Title 8, Chapter 2, Subchapter IV, 290.1 Definitions":


That should take a few years and a few more meetings in fancy hotels

Yeah!!!
Nice catch!

Probably more glitches if you look hard enough.

We can spread the word that if they don't change that then all tests based on the 2002 would be invalid.

All new projects are under the 2002 NEC (CEC). So only electricians working on legacy projects (permitted under 1999 NEC) are covered by the law.

Wait, even better. The state does not adopt the NEC at all. It adopts the CEC. So technically, there is no one in CA installing per the NEC. Whether it be the 1999 or any other edition.

Side note: My shop lost a few people due to them not interested in getting certified, and a few more for language reasons, and not enough time who were good workers.... The morons who replaced them that had a stupid card were and are crap! Would gladly take back those who wouldn't or couldn't take the test for those who did....

See this thread: https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000993.html


[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 06-22-2006).]

Oh my goodness, Larry
That means I'm not an electrician at all!

Me neither....