hi im new to this forum and so far found it very informational. i am currently attending a trade school to become an electrician. i want to get a job while im attending school. since i only go every other day. total of 20hrs a week. so on the non-school days i would like to get a part-time job, but seems impossible here in the cali. bay area. it also seems that since im not in the union people dont want to hire me. i find it very difficult to get an apprenticeship around my area. any tips on getting a job. i perfer commercial, or industrial work.


i perfered not to go union b/c i want to do everything i can possibly do. where i heard the union you can only do so much for the first year and then next year you get to do a little more,etc.

Well this isn't really the place for the union/non-union talk. They both have their positives and negatives.

I can tell you that an apprenticeship is hard to get into in some areas and easy in others. Here in Atlanta all you need is $40 for the app. and your scheduled to take a basic test. Really easy. First year classes usually have around 200 people in them and they get weeded out quickly. Usually only those that really want to be here end up staying. I don't know how hard it is in Cali, so I can't really say anything about that.

As far as the
This is not really correct. You will only learn so much the first year, but you will do everything you are capable of and then some. Short of working things energized.

In 2 1/2 years I have worked at a Water treatment plant, the GM plant, a highschool, The airport and now a hospital. I have done everything possible on these jobs from sweeping trash to running 4 inch rigid (with a JW of course).

As far as a PT job, you might want to try staffing agencies too. I have seen some around this area looking for electricains.

I do wish you the best of luck.

California is currently dealing with some major changes on how people enter the trade. Most of which has not been figured out yet. A law was signed several years ago, and just enstated at the begining of the year.

Re:http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm

Currently this law is creating an artificial shortage of electricians IMO. Employers need "Certified Journeymen" for the most part, as they can work alone, or to surpervise non-certified personel on a 1-1 basis. (So if you have too many Indians and not enough chiefs you have a problem. The real problem is there are not enough of either at this point.)

On the Union/Non-union thing, GA76Apprentice is right, we try to totally avoid the issue here, otherwise everyone starts beating thier chests like baboons and conversation just spirals into the niether world.

Since you mention the Bay Area, I think I can safely assume you are attending school in Hayawrd? (School #109?) I believe they have a night program that you may, or may not be able to get into, which would free you up to work more and make you more attractive to employers. But, like I said, there is a shortage, and many shops are now more willing to take on part-time guys. But in your case (New to the game) you're gonna have to learn that some people will just hang up the phone on you, and others will not. i.e. the Union will only hire out of thier Hall, ever, period. Don't take it personally, it is the way it is. So if you are "Cold Calling" just scratch those off your list, unless you join the union. On the other hand thier are LOTS of jobs out there. (For instance my shop is short 5 guys right now in SF.) You just need to know where to look... An ad in any Bay Area paper in the Jobs Classifieds costs about $500 a day. Emlployers have for the most part moved to places like Craigslist to post jobs. Some supply houses also are posting jobs on bulliten boards. Then of course word of mouth....

thanks for the advice guys. sorry about the union non-union deal.

currently, i am attending school in santa clara. called IBT(institute for business and technology).

i have called around and applied for serveral places. all seemed very nice, but havent got any responses yet. i have also tried the local parts supplier and they dont have anything posted either. while i was there i was talking to an independant electrician and he was very upset about the new law. he mentioned that he couldnt get any help b/c of it. his insurance wouldnt cover me if he hired me b/c i wasnt certified or registered with the state. the advice he gave me was i should try to work for a big company, instead of independant contractors like himself.

i have also looked on craigslist but all need a min. experience req. damn, i never wanted a job so bad in my life.

"his insurance wouldnt cover me if he hired me b/c i wasnt certified or registered with the state."

This is the problem, with going to a private school for electrical, outside of the system, my neighbors son went 2 years to a private school, then he was employeed with a local contractor, he had to start all over, and register with the state labor department, and the school did not give him credit for any of the 2 years, i think, it might be better, to find a contractor that will hire you, and then register for the state program.

please bear with me as i am trying to understand the process.

-im going to a trade school, is my school's credit going to count for anything when i graduate??
-also need to find a contractor that will hire me and register me in the state program??


i cant register myself?? the registration needs to be filled out by an employer? my uncles a general contractor, can he help me out in any way, even though he not certified electrician??

[This message has been edited by kojunho (edited 03-12-2006).]

Don't mean to be rude but I think you are wasting time and money on the school you are now attending. You want an apprenticeship so you get the field experience with the schooling.

I am not sure how it goes in your area but down here non union shops have apprenticeships that is accepted as time towards your Jmans card, the company I work for is one of them. Our apprentices go to school two nights a week and work 40 hours a week. We are so hurting down here for electricians many of the larger contractors offer apprenticeships.

opps my bad, i meant to say that is my schools credit gonna count for anything when i graduate?? like towards the hours i need for a journeyman certification?? i believe its 4800hrs for residental

As LG said, it may differ from one state to another, but usually, unless the trade school, is registered, with the labor department, and you have a contractor sponsor you, they don't count the school time, my neighbors son had 200 hours credited, by the good heart, of the contractor, credit for his work hours time, not much time for all his hours, just check into this, so you don't have to start all over, when you do get settled with a contractor.
The job usually comes first, then they register you, with the state, and usually pay for the classes.

so if i can get a job, i can get registered through the contractor and my hours at school would count towards my certification while im in school, right? thanks for your guys help. i really apprecite the input.

As of now, and things do change, but very, very slowly. There is only Apprenticeship through any JATC (Union), and a handfull of other (Merit) Apprenticeships, and these "Approved Shools". http://www.dir.ca.gov/das/listofapprovedschools.html
Dare I say it, if your school is not on the list, or actively persuring getting on it, you may be wasting your time. You had better check with them about thier status on that.

To actually work: You need to be "Enrolled" in either an approved Appprenticeship Program. Or in an Approved School. And "Registered" with the state DIR/DAS as an "Electrician Trainee".
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ElectricalTrainee.htm

This law has been a personal pet peev of mine, and a few other members here at ECN for the last few years. IMO it has been mis-managed from the get go, and dont expect it to get any better in the near future.

For those of you who don't know this law was only implemented at the beginning of this year. And has eleiminated the "Casual Apprenticeship" of the past, where you could just get a job and work. (Which might have been a good thing...) Now, only "Approved Programs" of State mandated training are allowed, and I'm not sure they will be able to meet the demand in the near future. Classes are turning people away and closed enrolements. And Contractors are having people leave the trade, with fewer replacemnts available to them down the road in site.

For that matter, many of us don't know how we will maintain our own Certifications with the mandated "Continuing Edjucation" from "Approved" sources. They don't seem to exist yet....

So to answer your questions kojunho, you need to make sure you are in an "approved" program, then you can get a job, and then you can gain experiance. You may be able to do all of them at the same time if you play your cards right, but be advised you are entering the Trade in a very turbulent State right now....

how come the only schools on the list are unions schools?? i have called couple places and the application would take 90days to process. damn, i dont have 90 days to waste. seems like this law is all about the money

Here in Jersey the Labor Department programs, have been around, since the 70's, when they first started we heard all the same talk about , the old way was better, and it is all messed up, but as it turned out, it is a good system, and works well, the old way, you din't know, if you had a properly trainned guy, or how much time he actually had, the trainning was left up to the EC, and some trainned their men well, and others just took advantage of them, we have no problem, working with the labor department, or the schools, all our app, have been thru the program, and some have left, to go on, to bigger and better jobs.

For those out in CA, try to get more involved, with the state board, make sure if possible, get one of your Assn members on the board.

Look again. The link e57 posted has 3 union and 32 non union locations shown.

One more time.....
Let's please leave the union and non-union out of this. I don't want to have to close the thread.



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 03-13-2006).]

Scott, for the lack of better wording I was about to say the same thing...
(Edit to remove long historical rant... )

LK, without getting to deep, the board is kinda a new thing... We are also talking about a department that really existed in name only before now. This is the only trade that has this type of mandated requirements, at this point. IMO they are in way over thier heads, and have sat themselves in a machine that they have little understanding of. Essentially this is thier first real ball game, and they are just now learning how to play with others. On the same analogy, they have been playing stick ball against a wall by themselves for eons.




[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 03-13-2006).]

California did such a good job with deregulation, they just assumed they could improve this too.

[This message has been edited by WFO (edited 03-14-2006).]

electure & e57 -

When I view the link, I see only 12 schools lised.

""Approved Shools". http://www.dir.ca.gov/das/listofapprovedschools.html

Steve

Click on one of the schools, and you will open a page that lists the 35 LOCATIONS of those 12 schools

"California did such a good job with deregulation, they just assumed they could improve this too."

The same gent's at Enron who came up with operation "Dark-star" are in court on un-related items still, yet to be charged for that fiasco.

Likewise I doubt if anything will happen with this fiasco, as we have become complacent in having goverment beurocracies that are totaly inept.

Back on topic, I have called the schools and programs on both sides of the ticket in my area, and none have immediate openings, or viable plans to expand programs on the table as of yet. I have a guy under me right now who has go to outerspace for classes right now. Although it only 35-40 miles it is 4-6 hours of rush hour driving R/T for the classes twice a week. I don't think he's gonna stick to it for much longer.

In general, I think starting wages (And likewise Journey level wages) are going to have to go up dramaticaly soon. ...to attact and keep some of the people in the whole process with a consumate incentive for the hassle involved. Otherwise they'll all become Plumbers, (and maybe make better money at it too.) or any other trade where none of this is nessesary.

Already more and more GC's are doing thier own electrical work here, were low rates start in the $90's. So if wages, and likewise prices go up, we may all be dinosaurs soon... So something had better be done about that, and quick.

And they've done such a good job with electricians that their meetings have had on their agenda in the last couple of years:

G. Industry minimum industry training criteria

1. Carpenter industry
2. Surveyor industry
3. Roofing industry

and

Action on approval of minimum industry training criteria
1. Refrigeration fitter minimum standards
2. Sprinkler fitter minimum standards
3. Pipe fitter/steam fitter/industrial fitter minimum standards
4. Iron worker minimum standards
5. Heat & frost insulators & asbestos workers minimum standards

and let's not forget:

C. New Business
Industry Minimum Training Criteria Reports:
Plastering Industry
Plumbing Industry
Operating Engineer Industry
*********************************************

Oh yeah, we electricians are just the guinea pigs.

electure - Ah, I was thinking completely different schools, thanks for the clarification.

e57 - I have about 5 years of OJT and I have also just completed a training course (classroom and hands on lab work) that went beyond what I was doing day-to-day and gave me the theory and why behind it all, along with a pretty good study of the NEC. This past Tuesday I passed my Residential Journeyman Electrician test. I have sent an email to the DAS asking about what is "apporved" training and where you can get it. I'll post a new topic when I get a response.

Steve

Scott, "such a good job"

You are being fecitious right? It would be really hard to self-censor the list, but how could I count the ways otherwise...

skingusmc, Not discounting the achievement... But the Residential Journeyman Electrician Certification alone is limiting. If you can, go back and do the General soon. IMO driving a wedge between the Commercial, and Residential markets is one of the many things wrong here. (Without mentioning names, it seems earrily familiar to another protocal, in use in my area at least... And the pitch I get from their Salesman from time to time. In fact just the other night. i.e. although the deal sounds enticing, my frequent flyer miles are not applicable, and NEVER will be.) Once, locked into the Residential side, it may not be possible to swap over without difficulty down the line...

Note the MAX allowable hours needed to accrue the required 8000 to qualify for General...

• Stock room and Material handling - 300 hours
• Residential Wiring - 3000 hours
• Commercial Wiring - 6000 hours
• Industrial Wiring - 6000 hours
• Voice Data and Video installation - 1500 hours
• Underground Conduit installation - 750 hours
• Troubleshooting and Maintenance - 1500 hours
• Finish Work and fixtures - 600 hours
• Fire/Life Safety, Nurse call - 600 hours

Not being able to do Commercial or Industrial wiring under a Residential Certification would mean you need you definately need to write down every hour you can for FLS, which may take some time in a residential envioronment. (Not that they are checking... Now, at least, but expect down the road that there will be closer scrutiny.) Anyway, my point is, that down the line it may be difficult to obtain General for those entering the trade under the Residential ticket.

Not being able to do Commercial or Industrial wiring under a Residential Certification also limits you to the market you are restricted to when times are tough. Although, General is not limited in this way... "any electrical system that is covered by the National Electric Code" Residential has a second-class citizen award with this type of crapola...

Ref: http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html

Imagine the scenario... Your allowed to work on those floors, but not THOSE floors, in that equipment, but not THAT equipment.

IMO this concept is bogus, there should be one test... You are an Electrician or you're not, a Journeyman, or you're not...

Like I said... Not discounting the achievement... But it is my opinion on the matter...

e57 -

Actually, I agree with you completely, and in hind sight, I should have applied to take the general test. I have a fair amount of experience in commercial and light industrial areas.

I agree that there should be one test, but this is California, and nothing seems to ever be done easily or with any actaul thought.

Steve

man, the damn rules get more and more confusing as i read them. how do they regulate the hours you accumalated?

Steve, they had years to figure that out...

kojunho - "how do they regulate the hours you accumalated?"

Right now, it's the honor system..... For the most part. *
"I certify under penalty of perjury that all statements and attachments are true and correct."
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ElectricalCertificationForm.pdf
*Although I have heard of people getting thier paperwork sent back requesting refference from thier past employers, but I havent seen that form. But for the most part they do not seem to check these at all.

For ET's it goes one step further and involves an "Optional" portion for the Employer with simular afidavids. http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ElectricianTraineeNEWRegistration.pdf

In other states with simular license to work requirements you need to log your hours and get them approved by whomever is supervising you as part of your apprenticeship. And one could expect that to be the norm as Apprenticeship and the Trainee program become the only entrance to the trade, unless you had your application in before the begining of the year for the 6 month extention. I expect scrutiny to increase soon.

(I have one ET under me, I need to find out what he's doing about that hours thing....)

would there be any point to register for the ET myself before i get employed??

Yes, and No...

You need to be applied in the very least at one of the schools, in order to apply for ET... And at least an ET to legaly work...

However, you may find a job where you might be hired as an ET and they may pay for, or at least a portion of it's cost through an association they may be a member of. Look at the list of schools and the associations sponsoring some of them, and track companies that belong to them, in fact contact those associasions themselves, they may be able to point you to someplace with a job to fill. My company is sponsoring 2 guys right now out of desparation, there may be other willing to do the same, if you can find them. Which may be hard to do until employers get really desparate. Expect desparation this summer... maybe... Too early to tell.

Or pay for all of it yourself, and find a job... It is your future and your Certification, they belong to you as your license to work. They do not belong to your employer.

Now you're right back where you started, with the chicken and the egg, finding a job in which experiance and training is nessesary, and needing experiance and training to get the job. If you are already in a program, that will be easier, and legal....

I'm just hoping you like the trade once you're in... There's a lot to know. I've been at it since 1990 and learn more all the time....

I too am an aprentice...Back home I acrued a couple thousand hours both residential and commercial. The problem was I was not getting the background (Theory...code...and all of the "why we do it this way") I wanted to be sure that when I stepped out into the field with my J. card I was ready...I wanted to make sure to be the best electrician I can be. I decided that schooling was definitely the way to go. I am now about a month into my education at Perry Technical Institute in Yakima, Washington. I highly recommend this school. I do not know how other schools work, but we are closely affiliated with L&I and in a two year class where we are only in class/ in the field for a little over 3000 hours we will acrue 4000 hours toward our aprenticeships. Like I say I don't know how other schools work but that is how mine does...Once again I have only been there for a little under a month...but I have already learned more than I ever thought I could in that amount of time.

I hope I was of at least some help...just be sure to figure out exactly what you are getting into before you put any time in anywhere.

Also I wanted to say to all of the inspectors, journeyman, and others puting input in to all of these forums, thank you. I have learned a lot just reading it all. I have my codebook right next to me and look up most all of the code references. Familiarizing myself with code and different ways of doing things at the same time.