who keeps track of inspectors?to see if the are falowing the code.the reasone I ask is becouse in a small area off ill. we were putting in an service and we used the water pipe for the ground in addition to two 8 foot ground rods on a 100 amp service.the insector made us remove the bonding from the water pipe"he thinks the electrons are going to get into the water and make people sick!!!!!!!!!!!"what the #$%%

Sounds like he forgot to take his meds.

If its copper waterpipe, I wouldn't leave the job without bonding it. Imagine reading in a newspaper years from now about some person getting fried because it wasn't bonded.

How well will you sleep at night?

Oh Yeah, I almost forgot, the inspector is smoking crack!

[This message has been edited by RobbieD (edited 02-10-2006).]

Isn't there an issue where several adjacent houses with bonded copper water pipes and bad neutrals to the POCO being a shock hazard to plumbers working on the pipes in the area of the bonds? Cut the pipe and that interrupts the neutral current because of a bad neutral connection in the service drop, and then get a shocking amount of voltage at the pipe cut? The neutral current had been going thru the pipe to find its way to a neighbor house's bonded neutral and there heads to the POCO? Maybe that's what the inspctor was worried about?

[This message has been edited by wa2ise (edited 02-11-2006).]

Vlad, the electrical code has absolutely no legal force unless and until some legal entity 'adopts' the code. That legal entity (town, county, state, etc.; usually the town) generally decides who the inspector is and what sort of supervision/review process is to be followed. You need to figure out which government gave that inspector jurisdiction.

Depending upon how sane/professional/reasonable the inspector is, you may simply need to politely tell the inspector that you believe that the judgement was wrong, and ask what the review process is, or you may need to bypass the inspector and go directly to the town government or state review board.

For what it's worth, using underground piping as an electrode can cause problems, including the parallel path issue that wa2ise mentions, or causing electrolysis. If there is some local condition that makes using underground water pipes as electrodes particularly unsafe or problematic, then I could understand prohibiting such use, and the local authority is legally capable of changing the code to suit local conditions.

However using the water pipe as a grounding electrode also has the effect of bonding the interior metal water piping, and leaving the interior water pipes un-bonded is a recipe for getting someone killed. If the inspector provided a means for bonding the interior water piping but not using the service pipe as an electrode, then there is probably some good local reason for that. But doing this would require corresponding requirements in the plumbing code, not just the electrical code. If the inspector is prohibiting _bonding_ the interior metal water piping, then the inspector is nuts.

-Jon

thanks,,we did discuss the problem with the homeowner and decided that after the final and before move in,we would be back to bond the water as it is suposed the be."turns out the HO is an elec enginer,and thinks the inspector should get some help." next thing is how do we deal with the subject of getting the inspector some help,removed ,replaced.who knows how many homes in his area are without proper bonding.this could be a very big problem!!

Vlad, as I see it there are two basic approaches to dealing with a "weak" inspector.

"The Stick" is where you raise a fuss with his boss, take the citation to court, and so on. Or, have a trade association do it for you. The problem with this method is that is does nothing to prevent the guy from having another "stupid attack" in the future.

"The Carrot" is where you introduce him to the internet, to this site, as well as a few others. You make sure he gets word of IAEI meetings. You make it require a dedicated effort on his part to remain ignorant.

As far as the water pipe goes, tell him "that's not a ground wire, that's a bond wire to remove any electrons that might enter the plumbing if some fool uses a hair dryer in the shower!" If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS.

I would try to find in writing what code they addopted and all the ammendments. Unless they passed an ammendment banning the cold water bond he can't fail you. If they adopted the NEC then you would be required to install it. After you did your homework talk to the inspector and ask how this requirement can be enforced are where does it say what he wants. After that try to speak to his boss.

It could be possable the passed an amendment banning the cold water bond. If that's the case I would keep a copy of it and do what they require. I once had a place that banned ground rods. I questioned it. Had no good reason except it's a rule from the last inspector. Then just followed their law.

Think who the liability on if you follow the local law or if you don't.

Tom

As an inspector I am embarassed that someone would call himself an inspector and not understand the Code or basic electrical pratices.
Appeal his ruling.
Don't plan on working there again but, you may save another electrician from having this same problem.
It might also save someones life.
Most inspectors are political appointees. Talk to the politicians.
Alan--

"Most inspectors are political appointees"
__________________________________________

Not here in Jersey, most inspectors here, are very professional, intresting to hear that some states, are still in the dark ages with inspections.

Alan, inspectors are not appointees in NC either.

Roger

Alan said:

"Appeal his ruling.
Don't plan on working there again but, you may save another electrician from having this same problem."

How many guys here DISAGREE with "....don't plan on working there again" ???

I, as an inspector, and an EC strongly object to this stance. If the EC is correct (to the 'Code'), then he should stand his ground! Filing a complaint (or whatever) against an AHJ, and basically running away, whether you win or loose?? Why??

Yes, 'retribution' (by the AHJ) could be expected....but..do you have/do anything to deserve it?? Get a red sticker for a chip in a trim plate??? Stand your ground, do it again & again, as long as YOU are right.

Here in NJ, we have a County Board of Construction Appeals, within most counties to handle situations between contractors/homeowners/and inspectors. It's not "perfect", but the situations are resolved!

BTW:IMHO not bonding the copper water piping?? They still make LSD?????

John

The only thing I can say that in older homes there have been people that raised the issue that electrons would break down lead from the water pipe in the water because it was bonded.

John,

Maybe the electrons in the water made that AHJ "sick". So See he was "right"

I lived in small town that had the worlds greatest electrical inspctor. Ask him he would tell you. He wanted the neutrals fused in the distribution pedestals in the apartnent complex. Not only was he the electrical inspector he was the city electrician , general building inspector and traffic signal electrician. A true renasaunse man.

In response to HotLine 1...

It sounds good to fight the good fight, but inspectors come & go. If inspectors don't agree with my interpretation of the NEC, or even know how to open the book is not as relevant to me as keeping some profit in the job.

Think how you might feel differently if with every appeal your "paycheck" was $200 short. That's the reality of most ECs.

Dave

Dave,

How would your paycheck be short, with every appeal ?

Over the years i have appealed many jobs, and if anything, i may of saved money, my total cost was a phone call.

In the last 8 years, i have not had a need, to make any appeals, our inspectors are very professional, and their calls are usually right on.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 02-12-2006).]

I envy you in NJ Les. Here clueless inspectors are rotated around like bad priests. There is no enforcement of fines for fraudulent permits, or failure to pull a permit. Carpenters freely do electrical work, and some of the inspectors know little more than the carpenters.

I recently walked with an inspector on rough & he's lecturing me on smoke alarms...only one per level, like having them in every sleeping area was a violation...and that I'd used firestop caulk when all that was required was draftstopping.

I asked another inspector a question regarding bonding/grounding & his answer was "Call me for final".

When you know where outlets are required in a house, you can look in new homes around here & see that the house is missing three required outlets & somehow got past rough & final inspections.

With this going on I don't have the faith that a phone call would accomplish anything other than get someone upset that I brought attention to their ignorance. The $200 was either my wasted time, or correcting a non-violation.

Having vented my small frustrations I'd like to add that in ten years I've only had one power-hungry wrong inspector that cost me $1,000. I've had sharp inspections that would rate with the top inspectors in this forum, which is always a pleasure.

Usually I have inspections by guys who have too little time and too much to absorb with multiple trade inspections and are very friendly and easy to get along with. In general I rarely attempt to educate the ones that need it & have never appealled.

In one of the sharpest departments around they say that IL has a law on the books that if an inspector makes you correct a non-violation you can sue for quadruple damages. If I have another power-hungry inspector red-tag me, I'll go for it.

Dave

Maybe you California guys can help me remember this??

Wasn't there a law passed years back that prohibited inspectors from writing corrections that were in conflict with the plans approved by the jurisdiction??? Unless there was a Code section cited???

You would think I would remember that one, but like a lot of laws passed here, they just get ignored or forgotten.

Like the law that requires inspectors to have 40 or 45 hours of continuing education every three years. As far as I know, no one has ever been checked or audited.

DBPR checks the CEU hours of inspectors and contractors in Florida. It is now all on computer so there is not much chance of cheating. Before 1995 inspectors might have been the mayor's idiot son in law but now he needs to be licensed by the state.

Dave:
After reading your comments, I see where you're coming from regarding the $$$ angle.

Here in NJ, the Board of Appeals provides a method to address 'problems, for a $50 fee.
Add to that loosing probably what amounts to a day's pay for the time you have to expend. Personally, I try to solve the situation one-on-one.

Yes, we may still have a "clueless" cowboy, but....the AHJ Continuing Ed is 3x8 hrs for inspectors, plus 2x8 hrs for 'Administrator' and I believe plus 2x8 hrs for CO. The 'seminars' are run by the State DCA, and Certificates are issued upon completion. The AHJ is subject to a CEU audit upon Lic. renewal (3 year period), just like the EC's.

No, our system is not perfect, but IMHO, it may be a lot better than some horror stories I read here.

As LK said "Not here in Jersey, most inspectors here, are very professional, intresting to hear that some states, are still in the dark ages with inspections" Thanks, Les for the compliment to those of us who consider ourselves "professionals", both as AHJ's and EC's.

John

I'm glad that N.J. , N.C. , and FL. require their inspectors to meet some level of competence. Now for the other 47 states...
IMHO knowing a politician has more to do with being the inspector than knowing the Code.
I have been certified since 1981 and recently got the IAEI/NFPA certificate for master electrical inspector. Many inspectors are not certified, even those that require electricians to be licensed.
I was appointed by the Mayor, and repointed by the two following Mayors.
Politics got me in the door, competence kept me there.
Alan--