... When is UL gonna lift the listing on "back-stabbing" as a method for device wiring terminations?? I just came from a trouble call(4 hours)at a residence where they lost power to the entire 2nd floor,..due to an old back-stabbed receptacle hidden in a closet... It's really a poor means of termination,and under load the poor connections overheat and can cause serious damage.. I issued a mandate to my guys stating that anyone caught terminating in this fashion WILL in turn be terminated..on the other hand,..it keeps us on our toes
Russ

But how do you feel about the "modified back stab" - ie the holes in the back of the receptacles that allow you to insert stripped wire, and then tighten the side screw to tighten the "crimp plate" (for lack of a better term) on the inside?

I've seen these on GFCI's for several years now... also on a few receptacles. They seem more secure than the old "knife edge brass" versions ...

... Now, those I like !!

One might observe that those are two completely different, unrelated, termination techologies that are similar only in the characteristic that the termination mechanism is accessed through a hole in the back of the device.

I've seen a series of pictures from Wago to show three different methods of terminating a wire: A hole with a little spring, a simple screw in a hole to hold the wire and finally the "crimp plate" type. (The type where you place the wire under the head of the screw wasn't among the pictures). The "crimp plate" has the largest area in contact with the wire and a high enough surface pressure to make a good connection without damaging the wire very much.

It is also the most expensive way...

I have used the captive screw tighten back stab devices and find them pretty good. But the same method is employed on most gfi outlets out there today. With gfi's the captive plate is so thin and cheap it sometimes does not hold the wire in place so well even if I super tighten the screw down. As far as back stabbing goes - whoever you are out there that does it- thanks for the many many service calls I have gotten which I fix in record time and get my 1 hour minimimum, and service charge. In the future could you guys not do it on the receptacles behind the heavy dressers? Your making my back sore.

I agree with you, Russ, and I certainly don't need a boss to tell me not to use the stab-locks. Knowing not to use them comes with experience in the field. I had a kid that used to work with me who swore he would not use the stab-locks but always did. Now he knows what section the classfieds are in.

The back-stab recepts were UL listed. All of the ones I installed worked well.

I examined some that were abused for 20 years - 13 amps of current for 2 hours 3 times a week. 15amp recpts on 20amp circuits. There was no sign of damage to the recept or the wire.

I expect problems were more due to the installer rather than the product.

I was under the impression that back-stabbing was already outlawed unless it had the crew type tensioner.
No one else has heard of this?

A while ago, ( Not sure which code cycle) back stabbing of # 12 wires in a device was removed from the code. I am not sure if it was from the maufacture or UL or the NEC itself. You can still back stab ( as far as I know) # 14 wire in most of the house, but you can not backstab a # 12 wire any more.

Harold

UL will stop listing them either when they stop passing UL tests, or the NEC stops allowing them.

Now is the time to make the proposal to the NFPA. You - or anyone- can make a proposal before Nov 4 through e-mail; see www.nfpa.org

Oddly enough, the 'back stab' receptacles seem to be rife with problems....but the similar design "Wago" connectors seem to work fine. I am not sure why that is. In any event, UL would be hard pressed to allow one and not the other.

I suspect all backstab receptacles may not be created equal. It could be heat from a bad plug cap connection compromises the stab contact.

I have seen backstab outlets cause problems numerous times. However the only ones with a problem are the old ones with 12awg holes in them. The new ones, less than 10 years old, I've never seen a problem.

... yet.



Russ

Sorry to go against the grain here guys, but for residential, and we've done LOTS of residential over the past 15 years, all we've ever done is backstab. Such a time/labour saver! I can only think of two scenarious with backstab problems, one is when we tried the off-shore China receps (never again). And the only other time we have problems is when re-using a previously backstabbed plug. The connection just isn't solid enough the second time around.

Otherwise, never had a prob with backstabbing and will continue to use this method.

Cool Sandro, and thanks. I appreciate the service calls.

Confession time...

When I quit my industrial job to go out on my own, I was on the "screw terminal only" high horse. (Quote me... Although it is UL approved, "back-stabbing is a shortcut that I won't take")
It was fine for service & remodeling work, where I was only doing a few dozen devices. But when I began doing a small new development, by the 6th house, I realized that I couldn't compete with the other bidders unless I back-stabbed.

Well, because:

#1- My family needs food & shelter.
#2- Back-stabbing is a UL approved termination method.
#3- Thousands of homes have been built in my area over the past 20 years, and every RESIDENTIAL electrician that I ever spoke to "back-stabs".

Therefore, I often do it now, with a clear conscience.

With the standard light load of most 15 amp general receptacle circuits in a dwelling, back stabbing is not a problem.

I have had service calls on all types of receptacles at one time or another, and in most cases it was evident the installer was the real problem, be it not tightening a screw, or not making sure the wire was inserted properly.

I must say a screw or pressure plate type installation is my preferred method, but I have back stabbed devices in my own home that have never given me any problems, and yes I installed them.

Roger

... Ok,..well,the general consensus here is that back-stabbing is acceptable,..guess I was barking up the wrong soapbox ... Be it as it is,..my edict stands to my minions,... and it shall be heeded!!
Russ

There's a difference between "back stab" and "back wire". See Leviton's BR series as an example of the latter. Back wires are quicker to install that side wire but they also tend be a bit more expensive. I'm not sure that the increased productivity offsets the increased price. And since most customers look at price not quality of life for the electrician it's harder to be competitive on a bid.

While I understand that "back stab" is "acceptable" I'm inclined to believe that any electrician that uses that "feature" is, well, just lazy. Probably the best rationalization I've heard went something like, "If back stabing is so great why is there a ground SCREW?".

Oh, I forgot to post reason #4 (laziness) in my list

BTW Mike,

What's your background?

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 10-21-2005).]

Don't do it, and won't. It just gives the service guys money to go and repair.

Anyone who has trouble shot one of these backstab receps, knows what I am talking about.

However, I feel for the new construction guys, you have to take "short cuts" in order to compete and stay competitive.

I got a recep, that I found troubleshooting a intermittent refrig circuit. It has no screws for the wires, only a ground screw terminal. Everything HAS to be back-stabbed. It was put in by a "kitchen remodeler/electrician". I have no clue where he got it, cause I haven't seen one like this ever before.


Dnk......

Interesting about the outlaw of backstabbing with #12. My house was built in '89 and every receptacle is backstabbed with #12.
I was never really happy about it, but it has been problem free for the last 16 years and I do load some of those circuits pretty hard. I am inclined to agree, with George amd Sandro, that it is more a matter of install and product quality than the connection methode itself.

[This message has been edited by IanR (edited 10-21-2005).]

Dnkldorf:

I've seen the back-stab only receptacles you speak of.

Leviton makes them and they're for sale at one of the local Home Depot stores (in Manhattan).

They're also the standard in Korean domestic wiring.

All residential sockets (either for American plugs or European plugs) and switches manufactured in South Korea are back-stabbed.

The ground terminal is the only thing that uses a screw with a pressure-plate (a nut behind the metal bracket that holds the screw)

Korean devices are designed to American dimensions and fit American boxes.

I brought a dumpload of new ones back when I returned from my trip. My friend who lives there LOATHES them with a seething PASSION.

She'd take a screw-terminal receptacle over these any day (which means I get to buy some of her electrical material and ship it over )

in Europe receptacles and switches with screw terminals have died out years ago and have been replaced by qack-stab only ones. Quality products normally don't cause problems, cheaply made ones do. On the other hand I recently bought some of about the last receptacles made with screw terminals (back wired ones with compression plate terminals) and they went straight from the box to the dumpster! The plastic was so soft the compression plate would twist upon tightening the screw and never make a solid connection. Even though i dpon't really like backstabs I don't have any _logic_ arguments against their use. It seems like most backstabs sold in the USA in the past _were_ made quite poorly and thus have caused many problems and a strong dislike amongst the electricians. here in Europe most electricians _love_ them. The only reason i ever heard from a sparky for liking screw terminal recepts was: "well, you can put in 4 wires if you try hard and in the backstabs you can only get 2!"... not exactly a qualified reason for using screws!
At home we have backstabbed receptacles from 1991 that are being used daily and so far none of them failed. The only thing I _really_ dislike about the old backstabs is the flimsy release button that's almost impossible to press.

Dnk: The back-stab only receptacles I've seen are commonly used in "Temporary" power strips of various manufacturers.

Temporary - longer than five minutes, but less than thirty years...

Anybody ever run into a situation where a wire was backstabbed into the little screwdriver-release slot instead of the wire hole?

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 10-26-2005).]

I would be hard pressed to say that my 35 years of experience is superior to a NRTL such as UL.

UL tests the stab-loc of these devices and list them as an installation method. For me to say that the stab-loc is inferior would the same as saying that I am superior to the testing lab, a step that I am not ready to make.

Most of the people that I have a chance to talk to in person that make the statement that the stab-loc is inferior could not be convinced to make the installation. When ask for a reason or substantiation the only reason I get is, I just don’t like it.
I have yet to talk to someone who can give proof that even one stab-loc failed due to the device. Either the circuit was overloaded or a poor installation was made is the only reason I have heard.

In the Europe, the power is 220-240 volts; thus, the typical current draw is half what that current draw in the US is for a similar load. It is reasonable therefore that backstabs might work well in Europe, but not in the US.

I think on average European circuits tend to have fewer outlets on them than the equivalent North American one, and yes, I think 16amp is about the largest circuit found in most of Europe. The UK of uses 32amp circuits and as a result, our outlets are still all screw terminal [grub screw type rather than wrap around]. Slightly sideways thread drift, I _far_ prefer the wraparound screw terminals on US/Canadian devices to the British style tunnel terminals.

Jw, I would bet the UL testers do not test things in a "real world" enviroment.

The manufacturer will provide an installation technique or procedure upon which the UL tests the device, and it probably passes.

I can't imagine a UL tester installing them at a production rate, and on thier knees all day long for years.

The ole saying " it looks good on paper" comes to mind here.....


Dnk.....

Please do not propose to do away with back stabs, they provide us with a pretty good amount of service work, they are usually found in production wired homes, where installation costs are number one, not good craftsman level work.

Food for thought from UL White Book" to those of us who do backstab:

"Single and duplex receptacles rated 15 & 20 amp that are provided with more than one set of terminals for line & neutral connections may be used to feed a single set of branch circuit conductors connected to other receptacles on a multi-outlet circuit.
These devices have not been tested for tapping off more than one circuit from the receptacle by utilizing both the side wiring and back wiring terminals on an outlet."

Of course our voltage is 230V, but still our receptacles are rated 16A, so what's the difference? Several cord connected appliances like washing machines and dishwashers do go up to the 16A limit and are nowadays solely connected to backstabbed receptacles! The resistance of the connection is a little less important at higher voltage, but that's all.

Several possibilities (more food for thought than reasoned scientific theories )

1. From personal observation, European 'backstab' type connections (I have personally only used Wagos, but I assume these are very similar?) seem to be 'tighter' than the North American equivalent.

Specifically, the Wagos I've played with seem to have much more resistance to 'conductor rotation' than the backstab outlets in the States I also played with.

2. Redsy has a point I was previously unaware of but seems to make a lot of sense, that they're rated for 'terminating' only, not feed-thru, which seems to be where a lot of the problems lie.

3. Due to construction differences, NEMA style outlets seem to get a lot warmer at rated load than European ones, this could possibly affect the spring in a negative way.

4. Often the failure in North American devices happens over a long period of time, rather than being seen instantly. The electrical contractor who goes to investigate has only the owner's word that the outlet hasn't been overloaded by the addition of multitaps, etc. (And that owner may not know what a previous owner has done, and so forth)

Interesting discussion looking at this from a point where the train for a "screw driver free" switch panel is just passing the point of no return. As far as I can see our future here in Europe, screw terminals really will be completely "out", as forces applied on the wire are not physically "defined" but depending on the feeling of the guy who wires. And a 90° turn and click will not only be safer but also cheaper even for 63A busbars as we all cost too much.

As a matter of fact a receptacle with screws usually is just cheap rubbish today, a certain sign of minor quality. The main idea is that copper is "flowing off" so the screw might get loose with the time and get warm thereafter, whereas a quality spring will always keep its forces.

Chipmunk,

My take on UL is that you can feed through either from the screws or the push-in, but only one or the other, not both.

European back-stabs have two holes per terminal and are commonly used for feeding through. I have wired 5-gang Schukos feeding even more receptacles on the same circuit...

Ranger, that sounds similar to the Korean receptacles.

Two little holes plus a button for release for each pole.

OK, I think I have answered this one at least 3-4 times in the last 10 years but here is my 2 cents again. Backstabbing IMHO is UL listed and labeled for #14 wire and it was UL listed for #12 years ago. When you are out there in the real world and you have to compete with others in order to get jobs and make money, you will backstab. It was and is listed and labeled so why not. Now if the GC wants to pay top dollar and is willing to go for the good stuff, then we would not backstab anything. The old proverb was,"You get what you pay for.) As for those "new type" of wirenuts that use backstabbing, I am not sure if I like them either. They will accept either solid or stranded wire. ( I believe) I found that when you use to backstab your devices, you should also give them a "tug" to make sure that they were really in there tight. I never had call backs on the devices we used, but on the othere hand, we did have to go back and fix some of the old pinback receptacles that were around.