I'm new here so I'm not really sure how many inspectors we have in our midst but, I'll ask anyway.
Are there any inspectors here that make a point of carding (checking licenses) on every or almost every inspection they perform?
I only ask this because I have noticed a decline in this over the last few years and frankly, having more than a few years left in this trade, it scares me.
The only people that have the authority to protect our trade are the inpectors and lately it seems like none of them are even trying. atleast in the areas I've been working.
I've been licensed for 13 years, first in Fla. later in Mich. and I've been carded twice in my whole career.
Who's making sure that the people performing the work are actually "qualified"?
When I lived in Fl. there were laws on the books that promised up to $2500.00 and up to 90 days in jail for performing electrical work for hire without a license and in Michigan, the laws are the same.
I've looked them up and I'm sure I could find them again in less than half an hour.
I'm not trying to offend any inspectors that might read this, I just want to know why the local authorities having jurisdiction, might not be motivated to check the qualifications of those whose work is being inspected.
Maybe, if the existing laws were to start being enforced, the money generated by the fines imposed could ease the burden on a few tax payers and the idea that there is a possibility of jail time might prevent the neighborhood handyman from hanging ceiling fans from the original 1940 fixture hickey and running 18/2 lampcord down to the speed control.
Just a thought...

In Florida I am not sure what "card" I would be looking for. The license number on the permit is for the licensed EC that pulled it (who is not likely to actually be there). There may be a sub permit application for another licensee but unless you saw a different name on the truck outside how would I know who was doing the job? The 5 counties around me don't have a journeyman's card so any employee of the listed EC is an "electrician" if he says he is.

Things may have changed from when I was in Florida but, ten years ago, a "card" would have been a journeymans license. The electrical contractor would need a master in order to pull the permit, but, anyone doing work under that permit would need to have a journeymans license, or be working under the direct supervision of a licensed journeyman.
I was in Broward county and things may be different where you are but, I remember having to study my ass off twice in order to pass that 6 hour long block exam offered in the Plantation High School cafeteria.
When I was there, the local Ft. Laud. inspectors didn't seem to bother with checking licenses because the county, not the city, would get the money from the fines and why should the city put forth man hours with nothing in return?
Here in Michigan, the state has taken over the testing and licensing of journeyman instead of the local municipalities, and there are laws on the books that would punish those working in the trade without a license just as if we were lawyers, doctors, beauticians etc.
In michigan, and as I recall in Broward county Fl. when I lived there, we were required by law to have our journeymans license on us at all times when working in the field. I still have my framed journeymans license from when I lived down there. If I wouldn't run the risk of waking my new son at 2:00am by getting it out of his closet, I'd take another look at it.
I was sure it was a Florida state license but, I've been wrong before. It's possible it was only a county issued thing.
I'll take a look tomorrow.

It was definitely a local card as in city or county. I worked from Pinellas/Hillsborough counties south to Lee county from 75 to 89 and the only area I knew that we needed cards was in areas of Pinellas county.


I still know people working in these areas and one of the biggest gripes is the lack of licensing requirements.

Roger

One of the biggest motivations I had to relocate was that I was trying to compete against so-called electricians that were working out of their carports without a license, insurance, or any other overhead that comes with a legitimate business and none of the local authorities seemed at all interested in trying to solve this problem.

Here in Mich. we are starting to see the same problem. The local inspectors don't seem to be going after the "handymen" that know just enough about electrical to create a dangerous situation.
If the local authorities were to start enforcing the laws that are already on the books, I'm sure the cities would see a huge surge in money generated by permit fees, not to mention fines.

In my state, the duties of checking licenses is with the state department, not the inspectors. We ask for an electrical contractors license at plan submittal, and if the job looks really bad I will ask for a license in the feild.

Lamplighter,
Welcome to this board. I have been here for many years and I show up every now and then. I too am an AHJ and as the others said, when I do plan review (here in northern NJ) the EC lic. is on the permit. The EC has to sign the permit and seal it and if I get out to the job and the work doesn't look like an EC did it, I might even call the EC to make sure that someone else is not using his lic. #.
I also check when I am out on the job and see work the the Homeowner did and if it looks too perfect, I might ask him if he did the work or if a Lic. EC did it. If there was a EC, again I would ask for a change of contractor on the permits.

Maybe I'm missing something here but you guys keep talking about the electrical contractor and not the electricians in the field.
I've seen many electrical contractors that will send a kid out into the field on his own service truck with less than two years experience, no journeymans license, and no direct supervision in the job site.
In Michigan I know this is illegal as well as in Broward county Fl. as recently as 1997.
Are Journeymans licenses a thing of the past now?
If so, why even bother with the code update classes?

Lamplighter:
OK, this is the NJ way, basically as Harold said, with my commentary:

NJ Lic. is for an 'Electrical Contractor', & it goes with a Business Permit. The "lic. Holder" is the responsible person for the work performed, and that person is 'to directly supervise' said work.

BTW, I am an EC (#8209-A) and an AHJ #5989. The "A" is on my BP as I modifies my business name once.

NJ also has a "Journeyman" card available from the BOE, but I can't say I ever saw one.

As to 'carding'; to obtain a permit (except homeowners) the application must be signed & sealed by the EC. As Harold said...if it looks strange, we ask questions.

John

Lamplighter,

Now to add to John's post here in NJ. I started to work for an EC back in 1975 and wrked for him for 8 years. took the test ( since I had more than 5 years experience) and passed giving me the EC # 7257 ( I had an A also but not now.) The A meant I changed my lic. but now I gave up my bus. permit and I am no longer allowed to practice. (Since I am an AHJ) My Inspector's Lic. #6597. When I was in my own business, I was responsible for every man I had working for me. I was non union so non of my guys had Journey man cards. However some of my former employees also had contractors lic. if fact 3 of my men had there contractors lic. while working for me. Now they are all back on their own again.

lamplighter, is it possible that this is or was a union rule? When I was approached to be organized we discussed something like this, but I was under the impression it was terms of the union contract. I have yet to hear of an inspector carding someone. It doesn't sound like a bad idea. If it were to be a state sanctioned requirement I would hope it would be a state issued card, but anything to keep the quality standard and pay standard high sounds good to me.

This is something addressed by your local codes. Some states (Oregon) have state-issued cards, while other places (Reno) have them issued by the city.
I worked for years with the local inspector carefully not "seeing" me work. Finally, one day, he asked to see my card. He almost fainted (from shock) when I produced one; it seems it has been rare in his experience for someone to get the card before they're first 'caught!'

Any apprenticeship program ought to issue some sort of "card" or "diploma" that attests to your completing your work. I would ba amazed if an electrical contractor hired a "journeyman" without asking to see this paper.

OK,
When I first topped out in Broward county (completed my apprenticeship)I had to go take the Broward county journeymans exam in order to be legally qualified to work without the direct supervision of a journeyman electrician on site.
It was a legal requirement in Broward county Fl.
I got the license at the age of 24 and was then considered a qualified electrician in Broward county.
I was legally allowed to work thoughout the state with that county issued license.
The Ft. Laud inspectors were sticklers for the card and I was required to have it on me at all times when working with the tools.
When I moved to Michigan in '97, the laws were pretty much the same but shortly thereafter, the State took over the exam and the licenseing.
I just looked the law up when I started this thread and in Michigan, an electrician must hold a journeymans card in order to be legally eligable to work in this state.
The fines are as follows...
Not less than $1000.00 per day for each day the violation occurs except that the fine shall not exceed $5000.00 in total per violation.
A second or subsequent violation is punishable by a fine of not less than $2000.00 per day for each day the violation occurs except that the fine shall not exceed $10,000.00 in total per violation.
This is part of the Michigan Electrical Administrative Act # 217 of 1956.
The licensing requirements under this act are section 338.888c paragraphs 3&4.
The law states that an id card not larger than 3 1/2 by 2 inches which shows the class and year of licensure be issued to anyone licensed under this act and that anyone working under the provisions of this act be able to show an inspector, upon demand, this card and a picture ID within 24 hours of being asked or the contractor shall be held reponsible for the above fines.
What pisses me off is that the legislation is already on the books and yet I have only been asked to show my card once in this state since I moved here.
No one here seems to be protecting the trade from the guys who don't have the expertise or the time in to pass the test.
The Union electricians here don't need to carry a J.L. since they apprenticeship is a good training program here and the locals have lobbied for the right in the past but, the non-union guys are supposed to have this card and no one seems to give a damn.
It's hard to compete by the book against other contarctors who might be hiring their guys out from behind the Burger King counter when the authorities having jurisdiction aren't enforcing this law.

Sorry, I'm starting to rant and rave a little.

Your thoughts?

And I thought it was about safety.

Around here inspectors are doing 30-40 a day. I doubt they have time to look for any card, even "la mica".

I'm from NJ also, and the way it was explained is "the way it is".

I have my EC lic. and my BP (up to letter "C"....soon to be "D" due to me moving ~ but the company name remains the same). Issued 1993.

I also carried the fabled NJ State issued "Journeyman Card"...for about a day...I saw NO POINT in keeping it "handy". Issued 2001.

If you guys want to see what one looks like ~ maybe I'll post a pix so you can say "I saw one - it's not a myth." LOL.

FWIW....most inspectors seem to "qualify" you the moment thay set eyes on you. Things like tool belt size and number of trips up the ladder or work plan are used as indicators as to whether the job is being run by someone who knows what they're doing.

Gentlemen:
Our Board of Examiners are the ones who impose fines on the "Un-Licensed".....
There's a 'Board' for EC's; Plumbers; Architects; Doctors; ETC.

Usually, on the NJBOLEC website, they have a posting of the 'minutes' from the previous meeting, with the fines paid, and other things. If I can patch the site link here, I'll try.

I don't want to enter any facts, names, locations, etc., here, as 'inocent until proven guilty prevails in my book, but I had an incident about six weeks ago, and I'm waiting for some news.

John