I'm an electrical engineer; up until now I've done mostly shipboard electronic work with just incidental power (3-phase delta as well as 115VAC), but I recieved a promotion and will now be working shore communication facilities and infrastructure worldwide, including generators and UPS (fairly big ones, on the order of 500kVA). I'm fairly well versed in the small stuff, like residential NEC, but this will be my first real work in the commercial end.

Anyone have any tips for things that might not be evident? Like cable slap and how to deal with it, and derating and other things that aren't exactly standard coursework in college? I've got a number of mil-hdbks I have to abide by as well as the commercial specs, so everythough *should* be laid out, I'm just worried I might not realize a problem until it's too late.

I'll also be doing work in Japan, Italy, Germany and UK (and probably a few others)- do they all use NEC too? Do most nations use the same permit/inspection methods the US does, or does it differ wildly from place to place?

Steve,

Wen you say --
I'll also be doing work in Japan, Italy, Germany and UK (and probably a few others)- do they all use NEC too? Do most nations use the same permit/inspection methods the US does, or does it differ wildly from place to place?

I'd like to inform you that-

It differs wildly from state to state in the good ole'U S of A.


[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 10-12-2005).]

Before reading what I've written below, note that the good news follow the bad news! No need to despair

The inspection vary wildly from place to place, from self-certification to strictly enforced inspections. Read Redsy's answer and apply it to the world... There is no general rule.

The NEC and almost identical codes (everything is relative ) are used in the United States, Canada, Mexico and a number of countries in central and South America. (Plus the Philippines)

This makes sense because 60 Hz and American style equipment goes hand in hand. As the NEC and the equipment and devices (breakers, receptacles etc.) used for wiring are closely tied to each other, it is natural to use the NEC.

Outside this world, each country has its own code or uses someone elses. For example the British wiring regs are used in a number of countries and the French appears to be used in French speaking parts of Africa. Most of these national codes are based on a code from the IEC in Switzerland which in itself cannot be applied directly. The equipment used for the 50Hz systems are designed around the IEC standards and don't really fit with the NEC.

Now for the good news:
The basic engineering principles are the same. Things have to be grounded, cables and motors need over current protection, voltage drop has to be considered and so on. If you understand the engineering, adapting to different codes shouldn't be too hard.

Despite whatever your employer may expect of you, you are sim[ply not qualified to be the "expert" whose signiture is required for approvals.
You will have to develop a relationship with several true experts- the local sparkies- and apprentice yourself to them.

FWIW, I'm also leery of assumptions that "electrical engineers" have any expertise even here in the US; they learned to be engineers, not electricians. Wiring methods, materials, NEC, listing requirements, interaction with other codes, the structure of a jobsite- none of these things are addressed in their curriculum. Nor does a "code class" cut it!

Lest you think I'm picking on engineers, I also have similar qualms about other "related" trades making the transition.

As for working overseas....everything is different (even the way floors are mopped). This in itself can lead to a great deal of stress, which usually comes at the following intervals: On arrival, 1 week, 3 months, 1 year. Be ready for it. Don't be surprised to see most of your co-workers limiting themselves to a local "ghetto" for this reason.

John. it sounds like he is working for the old RCA Global, they operated most of the older shore stations, to support ship communications, back in the day when CW transmission was king, now everything is sat com, and ships are loaded with electronics.
as a project engineer for this work, what he will need most, will be good contacts for contracted work, they will train him in no time at all.
These projects are really intresting, i enjoyed working them.
Good Grounding,
LK

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 10-13-2005).]

Steve,
Please don't take this as everyone getting down on you, especially us Moderators.
I would suggest a wee bit more field experience before you embark on a trip like this.
Not only could you be a danger to yourself but you could be to those around you as well.
Best of luck mate,
Mike.

Steve,
1 - tie it up, make it look nice

2- run everything at 90 deg angles to structure

3- make sure the materials used, FIT the application.

4 - Overdesign is WAY better than under, it lasts longer and your reputation doesn't take near the beating.

5 - Don't take it personally, you can't please everyone, just make sure your logic is sound.

6 - Use the NEC, and any standard you can hang your hat on liberally, see #4.

No matter if you're an electrician, inspector, or engineer, sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you, a little caution means you usually are the one who gets to taste the meat.

Eat Breakfast with your guys occasionally, you'd be surprise at how much you can learn over a biscuit.

Enjoy!!!!

Thanks for the feedback, guys! It sounds like following local codes is going to be harder than I'd thought, probably harder than the design itself, heh. I suppose experience is really the only cure for this, though, and only one way to get it!

Actually I'll be working for the US Government, which brings up another interesting question- if these facilities are on US federal soil, do I still have to follow local codes, or just US government mil-specs? I was spoiled in my previous job because not only was I the technical authority, I was THE technical authority- we wrote and enforced the rulebook and the only people more senior to us weren't themselves technical enough to do more than just rubber-stamp our recommendations.

The good news is that though I'll be the only EE in this group, there's an ME and Civil Engineer that are experienced and should be able to help me just through the local hoops. The bad news (good news?) is that the actual work will probably be done by the same people in every location, vice locals. Either way, I intend to be on-site for as much of the installation work as I can justify international trips for

Are there any significant difference going from 50Hz to 60Hz systems, beside different physical components? I mean, is a distro panel in London going to be identical to one in New York, just with a different sticker on the breakers, or are different nations going to be completely different?

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 10-14-2005).]

This reply is directed to renosteinke's comments about "electrical engineers." Mr. Renosteinke, Sir, your comment comes across a little prejudiced against EE's. You may have many more years in the field than I (I've been in the field since 1958), or you may have more experience than I, but let me tell you that the best electricians I've known and currently know are EE's. Another way of putting this is the best EE's I know are also electricians. Take your pick. The point being, as an EE-PE myself, your comment is nothing but a transparent putdown.

The sad thing is, I think many others feel the same way you do. To be sure, the fields, on both sides of the fence, are filled with competence and incompetence, but one should be careful not to include everyone, and particularly SteveFehr, in such a strongly prejudiced, generalized statement in a public forum.

Now that I've vented some frustration over the generalized putdown, I agree with you about "apprenticing." Every good technical person knows that learning is a life-long activity. I also agree the best way to learn something by doing it with direction from someone more experienced who knows what he's doing.

Again, the best engineers I know are the ones who have learned by doing under the direction of those electricians and engineers more experienced.

As they say, good decisions result from experience, and experience results from bad decisions.

Rich Thomas

Sorry if I offended anyone...but my "prejudice" is based upon far too many experiences with engineers- and their trade organisations. There seems to be an "I am the expert" attitude among the engineering community that is simply incorrect; when it comes to things electrical, it is the electrician who is the expert. Period.

Now I will admit that engineers have their uses, but it is unfair for a "newbie engineer" to expect to know anything- after a curriculum heavy in calculations and semi-conductor theory. I was blunt simply because it is unlikely that the college made its' graduates aware of just how little they had learned!

If you ask most any engineer with some time out of school, they will admit that they left school woefully ill-prepared for the careers thay eventually adopted. Can they learn? Yes, they can. That they are later expected to "supervise" or "manage" those who were their teachers is an insult- but that's another topic!

I'll let the engineers in the audience in on a little secret- if you ever hear a foreman refer to a journeyman as an "engineer," that is as big as insults in the trade get, and the man will likely be looking for work soon!

SteveFehr ---

Since you have a degree, you know how to read.

You do not need to read all of the codes. You only need to read those portions that pertain to your work.

If you are doing design/specification work, you should have no problem.

If you are inspecting, unless you know all the "right" ways of doing everything you will have problems.

Don't confuse my title; I'm n00b to international commercial electrical design, but I'm an experienced engineer and an expert in my (well, previous) field. There seems to be an ongoing fued between engineers and technicians/electricians, one always cursing the other! I can't tell you how many times I've cursed the $&#%@&*&^$#^& electricians for ignoring my instructions and doing whatever the hell they felt like, only to do it wrong and have to rip it all out and do it again. It goes both ways, you know

There are certain things an electrician is more expert on and other things the engineer is more expert on. If my drawings say to put in a particular type of cable with a specific type of conduit, I expect him to follow those instructions- there are "big picture" things you don't necessarily see when you're doing a specific part of a larger job. Likewise, the engineers usually get more tied up in the overall design and don't get involved in the details- I'd never go down and tell an electrician how to strip wires, or install an outlet box, for instance. I tell the technician to install an M83522/16-DNX ST-fiber optic connector with <.75dB light loss, but not the polishing technique to make it pass, etc. Occassionally I'll have to detail something out if there are special circumstances, but if that's the case, I always try to put notes on the drawing spelling that out in plain english to try to prevent "re-engineering." I could give ya'll examples of routing waveguide where the installer thought he knew better than the engineer and ended up costing the navy half a million dollars, but I don't think it's really necessary.

That said, I know this forum has a lot of highly experienced people and I value your experience and your input, which is why I made this post asking your advice! Speaking of which: I'm vaguely aware of cable slap from a thread on here about a faulty elevator; when does it really become a problem? Is this something I'll have to be taking into account or only extremely rarely an issue?

It seems the bigger the things get, the more similar they become. If you take two small panels, one to the east of the Atlantic and one to the west of it you will find:

US: A metal cabinet with steel conduit with the breakers placed horisontally
EU: A plastic box with cables with the breakers placed vertically.

If you open them you find different color schemes and two different busbar designs. If there is a busbar in the plastic box, that is.

Steve:

Take a look at these threads:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000329.html https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000391.html
It contains a discussion of that nature.

I'll look for the other thread which goes into more detail on the topic and edit it into this post. Edit: here it is!:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005708.html

Tony

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 10-16-2005).]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 10-16-2005).]

>>>when it comes to things electrical, it is the electrician who is the expert. Period.

John, I completely and severly disagree with this comment.

I seen to many Bull $#!* pumped up resume's from "journeyman" electricians to belive this.
Eight out ten electricians can not do what they claim to be able to do.
I've hired guys specifically for what they claim their abilities are and got that "deer in the headlights look" when I aksed them to do it.
Truley qualified help is hard to find. Hopefully the guy they are working for is the "expert. period."

Rob

Well said, SE!. If BS were counted like donations, I'd have received as much as the Red Cross and Salvation Army combined!

However- there was a recent proposal to the NEC that defined any PE as the "expert." While it may be fair to expect every electrician to know that "Klein pliers" is not German for "very small hand tool," it struck me as absurd to define a bridge-building PE as having more expertise than the combined membership of the IBEW.

Pick any college you want, and look at the courseload for an electrical engineer. While they MIGHT have a course or two that is of use to the power company, it is quite concievable that their best students graduate without ever even hearing of the NEC- let alone ever seeing a copy. Theirs' is a different 'trade' entirely, only incidentally concerned with running wires from "point A" to "point B"- then making something work!

Let me put it this way: if I want to understand how my radar-guided laser fly zapper works, an EE is the guy to ask. But- to get power to it so it works, the Sparky is the man!

I would just like to say that I respect everyone in this communitee, whether the Engineer or the Electrician. Being here learning and taking the time to teach brings us all to a better understanding of our chosen occupations.

I just want to thank all of you for what I learn from this forum and from those whom I meet in the field. I hope that someday I may become an expert in anything (I would like to publically acknowledge that I am not the expert at harassing my wife and sons no matter what they claim). I am particularly proud though that I can learn and hope to pass on what I have learned.

Shane Brown P.E. (with a meager 17 years experience)

Not to derail the derail, but I figured I should give an update now that I've been working in this new job a week. I still don't know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing, but HAVE been asking questions and lots of them!

The foremost I had after this discussion was about the codes we had to follow, but it turns that that even though we're doing work worldwide and nationwide under a vast plethora of local codes, we're the US DoD working on federal installations and nobody really holds us to anything. So, we work to NEC 2005 and pretty much just NEC 2005 and act as both engineers and inspectors to ensure the contractors doing the installation work do it properly. As the vast majority of this work is the same thing we've done everywhere else, it's mostly just a rollover of what we've done before and not a whole lot of places to screw up. Also, the bar is set very low- because my predesessor was an civil engineer with minimal EE background filling for the vacant EE slot, they let the contractor do most of the EE work and just rubber-stamp it with minimal input. Which is likely what I'll do the first few installs until I can build up my knowledge base, get familiar with NEC and the mil-handbooks and really get a grip on where improvements can be made.

For the time being, I'm jumping feet-first into the ladder logic of the PLCs running the gensets which seemed a good place to start

Thanks for your input everyone!

Steve..first of all, I want to thank you for not taking my earlier, harsher tone personally. Not only was I speaking in general terms, but I was also in the midst of the sort of job that would scare kids on Halloween!

My partner entered the Navy as a simple seaman- and left decades later as a Lt. Commander, having hit every stop along the way. Electricians' mate to Engineering Officer, with full "Line Officer" qualifications. This experience led to his getting an Electrical Contractors' license- so he can "approve" plans just like any archetect or engineer out there.
Yet there are some out there who would consider him "unqualified," or an "engineer" to automatically be his professional "superior." Sound silly? I think so.

Now, I can't speak for others, but I have often heard the opinion expressed that the "trades" were for those "not good enough" for college. My experience has shown this to be simply wrong.
Most any journeyman, in any trade, has put in the time (experience) and received the training to, in my opinion, equal what anybody puts in to get a four-year degree.
Nor is my opinion wholly without basis; most apprenticeship programs culminate in an Associates' degree....just ad the missing art appreciation courses, and they've got a Bachelors'.

A man with a few years as a contractor has arguably achieved the equivalent of a Masters'.

So look at your lead people with great "attention to detail." These folks didn't get where they are without having their act together. Even little things....such as the order in which wires are connected...often have a subtle logic behind them.

Every few years, a new code come out. When this happens, the guys who "learned it right" are seldom perturbed; the code has simply caught up with them. It's the guys who are self-taught, or who've been doing as little as possible ("designing to code") who are put out!

I'm near a college- and every once in a while, there is panic on campus as "exams" approach. In the trades, every day is an exam. You flip that switch, and either something works- or you don't get paid!

The cardinal sins of engineers these days seem to be:
-poor attitudes learned in school
-failure to actually see the job in person
-letting the CAD program do all the work.


As for codes: they can only be understood in their own context. Codes are developed AFTER the trades have figured things out. If your equipment is comparable to American equipment, supplied in a manner similar to an American utility, then the NEC makes perfect sense. But- try to apply the NEC, or American practices- to Brit gear, and may very well create a hazard. Watch your tradesmen....and later, after they've had a chance to "suss things out," ask them to explain themselves.

Good luck Steve, I can understand your position very well. I to am the designer and AHJ (Federal Government)and inherited my job from a Civil Engineer. I had the advantage that he was still around, had a photographic memory, and though he did not give me hands on experience himself, he sent me out the first day with an old salt electrician working in the dry wells of sewage lift stations. I am glad for this experience and many others with him before they retired or moved on and still get out with the hands-on end when possible or needed.

That said "renosteinke" has some very good advice and I hope that you are working with only US listed parts and systems to avoid complications, otherwise you will need to be knowledgable on these also.

My advice is get a good working relationship with one doing the installs who has credentials. I don't mean become drinking buddy's, but a relationship where both you and they can learn and grow. At first this may be pretty much one-way, from them to you, but you will be able to help them in some areas. Everyone has strengths.

You being new, they may also bring out that something that has always been done is stupid and suggest a change. Get all the info you can, explain that you will study this out and get back with them, but direct them to continue on as before. You take this and both of you can study it out, you may find the reason and need to keep it like it is, or indeed it may be stupid. Then armed with knowledge you can make the change.

Next get code training. Get yourself signed up for classes even if you do not have the budget. I recommend any training that I have received from IAEI, also my state and neighboring ones offer free to very inexpensive training partially paid for with fees collected from building permits and anyone can attend. (I should have checked your profile.) See if you have that avenue available.

Use this bulletin board, these people are great and very knowledgable. I know that many of these people teach code.

When a source runs dry or you you see where you are outgrowing it, find another. I may not know much, but I can ussually find someone who does.

Most importantly, share what you learn with others. It solidifies your knowledge and with and open mind, it will correct it and add to it.

Shane

Steve,
It sounds like your going places. In the world, and within your job. I have a lot of respect for engineers, we can learn from them and visa versa. The knowledge you'll pick up, you'll have for a life time.
Best of luck