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Posted By: Jps1006 FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/28/05 08:07 PM
I got a call to look at correcting a home inspectors list on a realtor's sale. One line item the inspector mentions is the FPE panel. What do you guys do for these? The HI (Home inspector)'s job is to normally raise an issue and then say "have qualified electrican make recommendation". Basically saying "This doesn't look good, but I'm not qualified to know for sure".

What can I do but offer up facts?

The equipment passed standards at the time of installation.

Most people would agree (myself included) that there is more of hazard present with this panel in your house than with a different brand.

I can't say that the this panel specically is a hazard or not. I can recommend it be changed, but other than that I can't say it a manditory change like I could for an NEC violation.

First question: Agree or disagree with the above? Any additions?

Second question: If I recommend and don't require replacement, do I then obstain from the small repairs to the panel like replace exposed romex etc.?

Problem is, she's a friend of my Mom's. Regular customer and I say, "must be replaced if I touch it". Don't really care if I am helpful or not in their eyes (care if I'm helpful, but less concerned of if they think I'm helpful) but when it gets a little tricky, don't want to come off the wrong way.

Thanks for listening, typing this has helped me think this through. Still interested in comments.
Posted By: maintenanceguy Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/28/05 08:23 PM
FPE's were never recalled. But the stablock breakers have a reputation for loosening over time and overheating, sometimes catching fire. Since there was no recall, the consumer products safety people didn't think the data suggested emminent danger.

Is the hazard higher than with other panels, probably a little but there's always some risk with electricity.

If they're willing to pay for something to be done, I'd think checking breakers with an ir thermometer under load would be right, maybe looking for signs of overheating at the busses.

But most importantly, put it in writing that you don't know what will happen tomorrow or the next day, just what it looked like today.

Just my free advice...worth every penny.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/28/05 08:39 PM
From what I see of home inspectors, the customer would be better off just calling a qualified electrical professional in the first place. They are going to look until they find something, just to justify their job, then it will need further evaluation.
Posted By: sandsnow Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/28/05 09:13 PM
Do a search here and at the Mike Holt site. This has been discussed ad infinitum. You will find links to CPSC stuff, horror stories, etc.

With that you should be able to make a call you can believe in.

Some insurance companies will not insure a house with an FPE service. Previous is second hand info.

If the exposed romex is a violation, I would think it would need to be corrected, service change or not.
Posted By: BigB Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/29/05 03:49 AM
Here is what I do. I tell them the FPE panels may have issues, and I tell them to go online and do a search on Federal Pacific. This way they are the ones to decide if it should be replaced or not. (Of course if the panel is obviously deteriorated we don't get this far). Once they do the research, they usually call for a replacement. And everyone is happy.
Posted By: harold endean Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/30/05 12:38 AM
I would do the same thing as BigB. I would tell the HO that the FPE panels were never offically recalled, The panels are now on an "Obsolete" list for this type of panel. You can still get replacement breakers here (NJ)for about triple the price of regular breakers. They have a bad reputation for not tripping, but that the HO should do some homework and research the panel on the web. In the 25 years of doing electrical work, I just saw last year a fire job that was caused by the service panel. And guess what the panel was!? That was the first and last time I have seen that, yet I remember when I was working were I shorted out a phase wire and the breaker didn't trip.

Harold
Posted By: renosteinke Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/30/05 12:57 AM
When I see an FPE panel...I know the work is somewhat dated.

My main concern is not the panel, as much as what other changes have been made to the electrical system over the years. I start looking for those other things....flying splices, overloaded circuits, etc.

When FPE panels were all the rage, ten spaces were considered more than enough for a large home. Today, that might even not be enough for the kitchen! We just have so many more appliances!
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/30/05 01:13 AM
Here is an update:
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/99_c/stablok.htm
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 09/30/05 09:02 PM
Great info guys. Thanks. Joe, Great link. Just printed it off and will be in the customer's hands within the hour.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 10/02/05 03:53 AM
I wish I could find the the PDF file I was reading a month or two ago. It had a lot of facts concerning FPE breakers and the problems that company had over the years since it went out of business. I read that alot of their material wasn't realy UL listed but was in fact "forged" to have been. Space for the wire bends inside the panel was a real issue as was circuit breakers not tripping out at the specific rating on the breaker itself.

Now on to these home inspector guys...

A guy I work with just bought a house and was having a home inspection done. The wiseass I work with asked what the "big 30 amp" circuit breaker was for. Wanna know what the home inspector told him? Kitchen lighting. No joke. Then he told him he was an electrician and that the D.P ckt bkr was for a garage sub-panel.
Posted By: mxslick Re: FPE breakers and home inspection - 10/02/05 05:47 AM
In reference to the first part of the above link:

Quote
This article was prepared by the former quality manager of FPE, who is a consultant to the company, in cooperation with other knowledgeable persons.

Sorry, but my cynical viewpoint is that anyone associated with FPE is hardly going to be candid/objective about the problems with the product, especially the quality manager.

I've done a lot of digging on this topic, both because of what I've read here on ECN and with (admittedly limited) first-hand experience with FPE breakers. Have seen a few stab/buss failures, a couple of 20a single-pole burnouts and one case of failure to trip resulting in burned out wiring. (30a DP feeding a xenon power supply.)

In terms of overall numbers of problems in relation to total number of FPE's out there, sure the issues have been a low percentage. But since electrical systems tend to be pretty reliable overall, how many breakers with "FPE-itis" are merrily feeding circuits, with the failure to trip not being found because there have been no shorts/overloads on said circuits?

If it gobbles like a turkey, and struts like a turkey....it's a turkey. See also Zinsco.

With all that said, as far as the original question is concerned, I would simply advise the H/owner that there have been some issues with the FPE panels and breakers, and that it would be in thier best interests to upgrade or, if possible (I'm thinking here that there would be some unoccupied time during move-out/move-in) maybe send the breakers to a rebuilder for testing. Not sure that would be cost - effective though.

Really, unless the house is a McMansion, a service change would be but a small fraction of the total purchase price, right? Cheap insurance IMHO [Linked Image]

edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 10-02-2005).]
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