from the ECN 'MailBag' ... Any general Advice??

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 09-07-2005).]

First, I'd tell him to get a 2nd and 3rd opinion.

I don't understand the "opening walls" statement. Leave the stuff in the walls and fish down new circuits.

Go as you can afford, have someone do a little at a time.


Dnk.......

AS an AHJ, and an EC, K&T that has NOT been 'modified' usually does not present a problem

The OCP that protects the K&T circuits should be checked as to proper amperage firstoff.

Yes, K&T is 'in' walls, but there is no need to open the walls, unless you are determined to remove the K&T.

"Fishing-in" as Dnk said is the way to go!

As to the lighting outlets (ceiling), what I have seen in 25 years+ is insulation deterioration from heat from the bulbs. Old fixtures lacked any insulation in the canopy, and people installed all kinds of bulbs over the years.

Peace of mind will require installing new wiring; it is the way to go if you are thinking about any renovation projects. A good lic. EC will 'fish' new lines, with little or no plaster damage. Remember, you get what you pay for!!

There is nothing within the scope of the NEC that mandates removal of K&T wiring.

AS to the insurance thing, that answer is best left to a qualified licensed insurance professional.

John

1st thing you need to do is shut of any power that is on the system and see how much is acually working. I have had plenty of projects like that. New home owners move in only to find out that their insurance is going to be cancelled. I don't agree with that but it happens. Get a few prices on the job and see if can be used to get a better price on the house to offset the cost.

Gut the house. Remove all old wiring and piping. Repair the dry rot, remove the insects and rodents, plug all the openings they got in from.
Install all new wiring and plumbing. Insulate the walls, install new sheetrock. Paint and trim. Install a new roof and cover the old siding with vinyl.
It might be cheaper to simply buy a new house?

It may be only a regional thing, but insurance companies here don't seem to mind K&T, as it represents >60% of housing stock as original wiring method. Most of my home still is... Screw in fuses on the other hand - NO DICE!

As for keeping it. That depends on the "grade" of wiring that was put in as original. As we do even now, there are different grades of wiring that we do. (i.e. bare min, or full kitty.) Some of the bare min homes had at most, a single 20A circuit for the kit, and lighting only, one each room. Full kitty had many outlets (Comparable to one circuit every 2 rooms.) and depending on when it was put in a few in the kitchen. As well as robust lighting layout and switching. (Maybe even gas and electric lighting depending on when installed.) Of course much of this housing stock was the McMansion of the day. Later on might even see K&T with seperate bare grounding to the nearest water.

Like mentioned before, unless some jerk in the 70-80's messed with it, (For some reason that seems like a very bad vintage for the electrical trade.) it was originally installed with, for the most part, the highest quality workmanship. Of course it is limited (like any instalation) to circuit load capacity. And, could last many more years, if not abused... Shorts, over-loading, etc.

As for code, 394 has some guidelines for what can, and can not be done with it.

In some closed remodels I keep the lighting, and ditch the outlets. (If in good shape, insulation still suppel, etc.) Some cielings here have archetechual elements that are too expensive to re-do, or replace. Splice and solder (In the same method it was done in) some length to make it to a box suitable for feeding it from, and re-feed it from a new circuit if need be. (Lately, AFCI circuits.) Re-use the Knobs & Tubes, or get new ones from one particular supply house that carries them. Although allowed, I never extend from it.

MPO... It is much less a hazard than the average 3-wire circuit, unless it was abused by over-loading, or exposure. All but some of the very late ones were 2-wire circuits completely isolated from framing, with no insulation in the walls, practicaly free air cooled circuits. Splices were cleaned isolated from movement, mechanicaly made, (Western Union etc.) then soldered and cleaned again, and preserved in tape. Considering, the age of some, (over 100 years) they rarely failed.

Any general Advice??
Keep the lighting, unless the load changes.

Ditch the outlets, the load HAS changed, add new. Any Electrician worth his salt would be happy to, and know how to do that. That is after all what we do!

Forget about insulating the walls and cielings, if you have already, bust open that joint and start over.

Due to the physical separation of the conductors K&T is safe when left alone. What’s left of the insulation on most K&T will crumble at the slightest touch so crawling through the attic can be a dangerous adventure.

Homes with K&T usually have fewer devices per square foot than today and the K&T I have seen always has been installed in a very professional manner. So you are not likely to have a rats nest of it in the attic.

My house has K&T and I don't loose sleep over it. While if I found out I had aluminum I would be ripping out the walls tonight.

My main area of concern with K&T is where it enters J-Boxes, since this is where it looses the protection of physical separation. However there is no easy way to check the junction boxes without possibly making the situation worse. And if there is an issue, that’s what the j-box is there for, to provide protection.

"My house has K&T and I don't loose sleep over it. While if I found out I had aluminum I would be ripping out the walls tonight."

If proper devices (colar) or proper connections (pigtails) are used, what is the big deal with aluminum wire?

Exactly the point.

IF the proper methods are used.

Not everyone knows that, unfortunately. Some people think that you can use any old 50-cent device with aluminium wire and not have problems.

As far as K&T goes,
It sounds like it's time for an upgrade.
Just my opinion.

You guys have covered all the bases so I won't comment on the work ... but if you do replace the tubes, save them, they make excellent hones to put a fine edge on a kitchen knife.

Steve, that is nice to know...

Which ones? The ones that make blue sparks when smashed, or the non blue sparky type?

I have never seen K&T nor the devices for it.

I was hiking in WA and came across a very old abandoned house, which was falling apart and saw a strange receptacle... is this K&T?
http://64.202.179.213/rec.JPG

This is a quick picture I found of K&T:

http://www.splefty.com/Images/knob-n-tube-wireless.jpg

What exactly is balloon framing? From the comments I'm thinking it might be something with few or no horizontal noggins?

Distributor:

Your receptacle is a surface-mount receptacle. A Leviton brand to be exact. I have two of those at home in my collection.

It was used when people would staple 16-AWG parallel cord (like SPT-2 type extension cords) around the baseboard of the wall in order to add convenience outlets to a room.

A lot of apartments (particularly really old ones that haven't been remodelled) have those - usually put in by tenants. I grew up in a couple of places like that and was very much used to seeing them.


[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 09-09-2005).]

Homes with balloon framing, have an open cavity from basement to attic, the good news is you spend less time at the fire scene, because they usually go to the ground faster then the newer standard construction homes, the bad news is when they have a fire, you don't have much time to get out.

Back in the late 70's we were working at a home with balloon framing, the plumber was installing pipes from the basement to the new kitchen , he was soldering a fitting near the outside wall, we all went to lunch, as we were sitting in the sub shop, we were wondering where all the fire trucks were racing to, well after we returned to the site, we knew where the trucks were going, only the foundation, and chimney were left standing, half hour lunch, they do go fast.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 09-09-2005).]

LK: LOL! BTDT. :razz:

Why are you guys going to the attic? The fire was in the basement...


As far as other things to be concerned with... I converted an 1870's era (former farm) house with K&T that had switched neutrals last year. Keep an eye out.

BTW - If you're opening walls, and can punch out the tubes, NM fits right through the holes...

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 09-09-2005).]

Hmm.. a good example of a hack job..
Flying splices, can't tell if there is a box under that fixture, and of course, the screw-in adaptor with the wall wart..

Looks like it's powering a naked Apple Airport wireless base station (version 1, without the flying saucer case..)

I'm trying to visualize how this works. Is this an open cavity between every upright stud? It seems as though with no cross-bracing the frame would lose at lot of its strength.

You guys make me feel old. Ballon framing goes from the first floor deck to the top plate of the second or third floor. There is no need for cross bracing as they used material called tounge and grooves boards to hold the walls together. This was before that pink stuff or wood chip siding. It wasn't very enviromentally friendly but there wern't many 6000 square foot homes in those days either. I think we've all cursed fire bracing, which was supposed to be installed. But only seemed to be in the stud bay I wanted to use that bay or install a switch on the other side of the fire stop, no matter which direction I tried to run wire.

The Ca D Zan (Ringling bros) mansion in Sarasota similar to this balloon except the outside walls are masonry with a 12" air space and a stick frame house inside that. This is 4 stories. The air space breathes all the way from the basement to the attic. Wind whistles up those walls and gives a primative air conditioning for the turn of the century builders.
When we were retro fitting MC cable in there the EC was flying a skinny helper down that gap to fish the ceilings. I didn't want to know how they did it.

Paul,
Many of the old Vic's of SF are baloon framed like this: 2X4R(Not 1 1/2X3 1/2), or 2X6R studs are stood up on end, toe nailed on the sill/mud plate for the full building hieght. Then they put a temporary strap to keep them parralel at each floor. Then laid the floor joist on that, nailed to the side of the stud with 2~3 30d nails. The outside was sheathed in 1X8, and subfloor in 1X6. (Against another building like many are here the sheathing whent on first, and jacked into place. A whole wall 30~40') The sheathing and subfloor locked the stud movement. Add lathe and plaster, and it was primative shear wall. Believe it or not, many of those buildings made it through several major quakes here in the last hundred years. And the air movement in the studs has detered rot as well. The fire hazard comes from the chiminey effect obtained due to the cavity from sill plate to the top plate at the roof of the building. Remodels here just add blocking at the top, mid and bottom.


http://uoregon.edu/~histpres/Courses/Lecture6_Handout.pdf

Something I have trouble trying to imagine is the shipping and handling of 2X(z)X30'+ of rough mill cut redwood. This was before trucks and cranes. I guess it showed up on a 4~6 HP cart (Real horses ), and man-handled with the lost arte of rigging.


The electricians of the day must have started the day by sharpening the drill bits. They have some of the cleanest cut holes... One wire per hole with a brace/crank style auger, all day by hand!



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-11-2005).]

Very nice 'e'

I've worked on remodels of some of these houses. An 'old-timer' told me that the wood came to the area by train.

Bill

Ah, now it makes sense! Thanks.

In Britain, timber buildings using the old post-&-beam style construction (with absolutely huge timbers, often 12" square or more) were common in Tudor times (1600s), but then timber construction fell right out of favor for a very long time, with brick and stone becoming the norm.

Timber framing returned for internal partition walls (lathe & plaster), but it's really only in the latter part of the 20th century that full timber-frame construction has started to enjoy something of a revival.

Even so, many people over here still regard timber construction with suspicion. (No, not me, I love timber!)