Alan and Trumpy both have valid points in the previuos thread. I believe this is worthwhile discussion but the thread was heading to politics. There are plenty of boards to engage in that kind of mud slinging if that is what you wish to do. I would like to hear how our electrical brethren are fairing. If the city is evacuated, I assume that contractors will be allowed in to begin clean-up as soon as rescue operations are complete. The challenge these guys are facing are almost overwhelming. What about the engineering problems to prevent this in the future, or is the city declared uninhabitable?
KB

KB,
Good on ya mate.
I think personally that it will take some time to actually drain the area.
It sort of makes me think though, what is the point in rebuilding an area that could be flooded twice as badly down the track, say in a few months or a few years?.
It also makes me wonder where the current residents will live while this (if any) rebuilding happens?.
With Global warming accounting for a lot of strange weather patterns the world over, could this be then called the norm for the future?
I'd hate to think so.

My prayers and thoughts go out to anyone that is caught up in this disaster and I have made a contribution to the Red Cross.
If you care for your fellow man, do the same.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 09-02-2005).]

I want to say something here, that some may take the wrong way, but I hope it makes you think...

Did that $20 you gave make you feel good today? Did you feel as if you accomplished something?
I hope so.

So in a year from now...

Go to a childrens hospital in your area, and feel good again...


Dnk......

Dnkldorf,
I provide my time free of charge as a Station-Officer of the local Volunteer Fire Brigade.
I could be called out of bed at any time during the day (I am a Night shift worker) or night/day during the weekend.
It doesn't come down to money, it is based upon caring for your fellow man.

I meant nothing by it Trumpy, I have a bleeding heart for unfornuate/needing kids.


My grandfather/dad/ his brothers were all volunteer firemen for a good part of their lifes. Alot of people aprecciated them for what they did.

Alot of people appreciate you for your efforts as well, Me being one of them.

My point is, even though this is a time of tradegy in NO, there is always tragic events happening in our own back yards. The children are the ones that seem to suffer most.

Kids are our future.......

Dnk..........

I have a dumb question for the firefighters here.
I keep seeing/hearing that they can't fight fires because there isn't any water pressure. Isn't a fire engine a truck with a big pump on it? Why can't they just drop the suction hose in the water they are standing in and pump that?

I think that this is a good time to get with the Dutch and engineer dikes and levees that will protect the future city. They should keep everybody evacuated, take what land they need and re-do the whole place.

They also need to do something about the loss of the marshlands between New Orleans and the Gulf.

I used to live in Gulf Springs by Biloxi and there isn't much you can do to protect that part of the Gulf from a Catagory 5.

The biggest thing they can do is to be sure everything gets build back to current code. Use the Florida wind code. No exceptions to the FEMA elevation.
You notice when a storm hits the same places twice here in Florida, a few years apart, the second storm does not do near as much damage, even if it is stronger.
If you look at those Hiroshima looking pictures from Mississippi you will notice the new McMansions look largely undamaged and the old homes are gone.

I myself have great faith in the Army Corps of Engineers, they've been an amazing asset to the U.S. for over a hundred years building thousands of enviromental/disaster support and control facilities, and I believe that once order in New Orleans is restored they can re-build the levees to the standards that they should have been built originally.

I hope my comments were not looked upon as politically motivated. They are not. They are a valid point of discussion on the disaster. The federal government was far to slow to react to this situation and as a result more lives are being lost. There should have been an immediate declaration of martial law and an a military response as if the Gulf Coast were being invaded by a foreign country. I would say after seeing this we are not as safe as we may think we are.

People react differently in these terrible situations. Some are criminals and some are heros. The size of the disaster make it difficult for the rescue workers. Hats off to those making the effort.

Dave

Don't forget flood codes also.

Or radically, abandon the lower parts of NO, for higher ground.

Scott,

Your statement was not looked upon as politically motivated, it was a fact that response was slow, for a storm that we were all told was going to be a bad one.

Lets give credit to those in our federal goverment, that did an excellant job, the weather agency, that went out on the limb and warned us of possible desaster, the US Coast Guard, for a job, that streched their limits, they deserve a big thank you, and every other agency that was prepared to react but had limited information due to loss of communications.

gfretwell,
Volunteer FDs are for the most part great organizations staffed by well-trained and dedicated people.
However, the VFDs do have the deck stacked against them in a number of ways given that they have adequate training and equipment:
1) How is a fire reported? It is not all that unusual that a fire is well on the way before it is seen and even reported.
2) Once reported the volunteer most drive to the firehouse as someone must get the equipment.
3) Then drive to the fire which is already well on the way.
4) Most often they only have water that is carried with them one the trucks, no fire hydrants.
Now, as far as water pressure is concerned the common Pumper/tanker will carry anywhere from 750-1500 gallons of water, some maybe a bit more, each capable of putting out 125# of pressure. Each 1-1/2" line will put our 100gpm @ 125psi> if you do the math you will have a good idea how long 1000gal will last.
Then there are tankers that may hold 2500gal and more but that will only last so long. Add fold-a-tanks for on site water storage (like a portable swimming pool) and combine that with mutual aid from fellow vfds \who can bring and run back and forth for additional water and a vfd can be put up against the best full time departments.
Common city water pressure is 60psi so city FDs us their pumpers to increase the pressure. Also remember that water mains do have a limit of how much water they can supply also. The question them is how many GPM can be drawn form a fire hydrant before the pressure of the water main starts to drop below 60psi.
But, again, the biggest handicap is reporting the fire promptly which the city departments have an advantage along with already being at the station. Remember that a 4-min. response for a full time department is often considered good. The, home long does it taker a volunteer to get to the firehouse?
Taking all this into consideration FVDs do a darned good job but there are those that like to take pokes at them.

JTF Katrina is on the way now: http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/849F09A90BC424168525706F0065DE72?opendocument

As for the delay in responce... All can be put aside because they KNEW that this was threat. For a long time! They have been talking about this for over 50 years. The guy in charge of the Army Corps of Engineers said this was not a surprise. I have been to NOLA many times, and it is often a point of general conversation for people who live there. They have also known that there was no real way to evacuate that city if, and it did happen.

What to do about it? Built the storm walls at the water line, where it is now. History repeats itself. Mother nature has claimed eminant domain. Relocate the affected population.

Guys:
AS one who lives on the Jersey Shore (Lagoon), in a Twp with a great vol. FD, FA Squad, I have to say that they all do a great job, and a lot of peoples hats are off to them, always.

As to the TV coverage I saw, I have to say... the USCG and the Armed Forces guys that were dangling from 'copters, chopping thru roofs, and whatever else they did/do really deserve credit. I know, when I'm out & about on my boat, and the USCG choppers or patrol boats go by, I feel good, even though I am not in any situation that I need them.

The politics of complaining is part of the american way, and one of the rights that we all enjoy in this country.

YES; we have 'problems', but IMHO, this is still the place I want to live.

Yes, there's a bad situation that unfortunatley developed, and a lot of back seat quarterbacks, and a lot that could have been done differently, but?????

Red Cross is looking for help, along with a lot of other REAL organizations; also the scammers started, probably as Katrina was 100 miles off the coast. I posted other comments in the other thread regarding the looting thing if anyone cares to read it.

John

I don't believe my original post was too political, so I'm doing a copy 'n paste.

My family and I are giving $20-$30 to the Red-Cross via my school tomorrow or next week. I can't believe all the devastation down there. I'm glad to see Bush is already reacting to this disaster. I can't blame people for stealing food, but 46" TVs and new computers, NO! Why steal electronics when they're probably worthless by now after being under one or two rounds of water? I saw a story on the local news of a person who looted an electronics store, and wanted to know if he could bring his new HDTV and computer onto the bus he was taking out of town. It is going to take a long time to rebuild New Orleans, but IMO, they shouldn't rebuild it until they can fix the elevation problem.

My 2cents worth
Ian A.

I heard A Long time ago that New Orleans sinks at a rate of one inch every year. Is that true? If so, Why on earth would you rebuild the part of the city that is sinking?? When New Orleans was founded I'm sure they didn't build the Leveys and drain the area...

Guys, I have some strong things to say, but I PROMISE ia am not making any kind of 'political' statement.

We all feel pain when the innocent suffer. That's what makes us human.

Katrina is a shock for several reasons. In even the worst disasters, we in the US are accustomed to seeing a handful of deaths- not thousands, like is so typical in the "Third World."
Every year, we have several hurricanes- and every one is accompanied by "end of the world" predictions. So we become numb, and can't tell a "real" warning from a "pro forma" one.
Most of us rely upon our local resources for most things- not some power far away. Homestead Florida did a fine job of banding together when the crunch hit- so the degerneration of the Gulf area into a soggy Somalia is especially distressing.


New Orleans has given several signs over the years of being dysfunctional. Certainly, none of the risks were unique....you don't live along one of the world's largest rivers, and along a hurricane coast, and next to a levee without at least once saying "this can't be good." Every year the Mississippi sends millions of tons of dirt into the gulf- by now, New Orleans should have been atop a hill- not below sea level!

Beyond the local crisis, we all are paying for our ignoring other warnings. Two summers ago, the entire energy market was poleaxed by some refinery problems in California- and Enron capitalising on them. One neither drills wells nor builds refineries overnight- but, had we listened then, we wouldn't be getting hosed by this disaster. Really makes me want to hug a bunny!

I also recall how, countless times, we have pitched in to help the rest of the world. So who has offered to help us this time? Where are the UN resolutions? Where are THEIR aircraft carriers, sent to deploy aid?

What happened to 'self reliance' and 'keeping a stiff upper lip?' How can we hear cries of 'no water' when they're neck deep in the stuff? What do they want= Perrier? No food? Hate to say this, but a week without food isn't so bad- so what's with the complaining five minutes after the rain stopped? No power- heck, even the "Robber Barons" had to make do without electricity!

As for the media- their continual harping on the negative only feeds the despair of the injured. Don't just stand there, surrounded by your private army, pontificating how 'this or that' should have been....tell us how we're all busting our tails to clean this up.

I'm really shocked by your post. They can't drink the water that they are neck deep. It is a swamp of sewage, chemicals and death.

Many of them have lost family and friends. They are homeless and have lost the support of their church and community. As well as food, they are without their medicine.

With a little patience I think we'll see the support of the world to help us in this crisis.

Dave

I think it is a little unfair to blame the feds too much for being slow. The "army" is constitutionally prevented from going in and declaring martial law. The National Guard works for the governor of the state, not the feds. Those guys are just citizen soldiers
and they just went through a hurricane themselves.

The rest of the gulf coast had a hurricane and the response was reasonable under the circumstances.
NOLA was a different type of disaster that nobody was really ready for. You can probably blame the "social engineering" and the fact that there were as many people with no personal resources in that "bowl" as any civil engineering failure.
Most of us would have swam, walked or crawled up to the first place that took Visa and got the hell out of there. These folks were just stuck with no where to go and no way to get there.

BTW where were the Coast Guard BOATS? Helicopters are probably the least efficient way to evacuate people from a flood.
Personally I think they left those people there because they ran out of places to put them. Also, why send them all to Houston? Why not spread out the refugees to towns all over so each one has less impact on their infrastructure. You are just transplanting the disaster, not mitigating it. If every town within 300 miles took a busload or two they wouldn't have a problem finding shelter for them.

good points gfret. Spreading the people out would be much better.
I too wonder about the boats. Can only imagine the waters are too shallow for boats and too deep for vehicles. But like my wife said, wouldn't those amphibious vehicles at Wisconson Dells be perfect for this?? Don't the reserves have them too?? I still don't get it. I haven't watched too much news on all this, but I feel like I'm not getting the whole story. I can only figure there are reasonable explainations for why the efforts are not showing enough results, but that wouldn't sell commercial time now would it. I don't fully trust the angle being taken by the media, but who knows really.

The Coast Guard must have lots of shallow draft boats in the bayou.
Around here (similar mangrove islands) the sheriff uses a Rigid Inflatable Boat with jet ski engine in it. That puppy will run in 5" of water.
They could make a train of regular rubber life rafts towed behind the RIB with a few rescue swimmers and run it like the parking lot tram at Disney World.

There were a bunch of private boats picking people up for a while but I think the cops stopped them.

I guess nobody read my post about jet ski and tow sleds. Here on Oahu we have plenty of those posted around the Island, manned by our lifeguard crews, for the purpose of high surf rescue jobs. Jet ski's get into very shallow water. Our lifeguards (who I think are the worlds finest, by the way), have pulled people out of 40 foot surf conditions who have suffered broken necks, broken backs, broken limbs, major puncture wounds, and still got em back to dry land alive. IMHO, any lowlying town along any major waterway ought to have at least some similar type setup for when the flood arives. I know its too late for New Orleans now, but how many times have we seen ariel shots on tv of flooded areas along the Mississippi river? Seems like every other year or so.

Funny, I saw a show about the enormous computer-controlled rotating dyke the Dutch built a couple weeks ago.

My reaction then was what it is now: How silly.

This country has a zillion square miles of land that is not in a flood plain. Why not build there?

"This country has a zillion square miles of land that is not in a flood plain. Why not build there?"

... Because somebody else owns that high ground?

I bet the high ground around NOLA is dotted with McMansions. You notice you didn't see many rich people in the flood.

I think they should just pay the owners, scrape the flooded area and carpet the river with barges of dirt until there is a hill there. THAT will be valuable property that folks like Toll Bros, Lennar or Centex would be happy to develop for you.

A couple of interesting facts.....

Almost a year ago, (Oct 2004), National Geographic did an article on the Delta, that almoost exactly described the effects a hurricane would have there. The problems are not new, were not unknown- and now we have no choice but to deal with them.

As for sending in the Coast Guard...I have been told that Coast Guard vessels have relatively little room for people. Ratherm instead the US Navy has dispatched at least three amphibious assault ships; there are ships wit bunks for thousands of troops, enormous well decks, and stuffed with landing craft- vessels ideal for shallow waters. The USS Comfort, a hospital ship, is also on scene.

This is not a little mess confined to New Orleans. Major parts of the Gulf, an area roughly the size of Great Britain, has been devastated.

Both the Navy and by proxy the Marine Corps have what are reffered to as MEP ships. They are merchant marine vessels, that carry everything needed to invade and support troops on the ground. But what they also have on them are hundreds of reverse osmosis units, as well as a large one on ship for making drinking water. (Which include many extra enoumous pumps.) They also have hundreds of generators from 30-500kw and a few high voltage 2Mw's, not to mention ship to shore power. (Enough to light a conservitively lit city.) Shrink-wrapped helicopters. They also have hundreds of Hummvees, and 5ton trucks that ford water from 4-6'+. Amphibious landing craft. Tents, food, water, and reffer units. Hundreds of thousands of gallons of deisel fuel. All in one big boat. A one stop shop for everything to invade a country, or get one out of severe need in a flood. I have un-loaded and loaded dozens of these. They float these things world wide and always have a few in case a situation arises. (I believe two are even based out of NOLA, although they may not be there now.) Think the situation has arisen. Hopefully a few will be seen there soon.

Now back to something electrical.... Having done some "field expediant wiring" myself. Which can be real quick, and on the fly, but works when you need it. They can start getting power to certain key places in the city real quick by isolating them from the grid, most of which is down. Then placing generators every few blocks or so. Or right under the transformer cans. Un-do the LV side, and connect that to the generator. Do the short hunt, and get some power back on while the HV side gets re-worked. When the transformer gets hot again, switch it back over. You just gotta make sure that everyone cooperates, and leaves the AC off. Otherwise a 60kw will run a whole residential city block or two easy. All of the hospitals should have generators already. If not the same can be done with a larger gen set. It's a lot of gen sets, but like I said, the military has them, by the 10's of thousands. And it doesn't have to be the whole city, just a few key places. Some lights at night, and some food in a fridge would add some comfort to a very uncomfortable situation.

How many people were "electrocuted" because of the floods?

My guess would be that very few were. Power went out early from the news reports I saw, before the major flooding occured.

I would caution to guess that any electricutions were more due to the hurricane itself, from downed lines. An enevitabilty in any hurricane. The power was out for the later flooding. At the start of one of the closed posts, I asked why they don't shut the power off for the hurricane? They know the lines will go down.

I agree there is going to have to be some quick and dirty temporary wiring done to get started to dry that place out. Has anyone heard why they have not been able to get those pumps running? Can't do much until you get that cesspool pumped! Looks to me like getting some generators on-site and firing them back up would be a step in the right direction.
KB

The reason they aren't pumping it out right now is that the pumps put the water into the lake. The levee on the lake has a huge hole in it. If they don't repair the hole first, the water will just flow right back into the city.

My heart goes out to all those affected by this storm and the flooding. I have a cousin in MS who's house was completely destroyed. I hope the rebuilding can start soon, but I also second the call to only rebuild to Florida building code standards. I have seen some of these houses under construction and it is obvious that a few simple things can make a house much stronger.

Nobody will say it out loud but I doubt the EPA is not going to let them pump that out without an NPDES permit.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM

Some sat photos have sheens of oil the size of city blocks...

A question for y'all

What standard would you set for giving the CO on a New Orleans house when they pump the water out?

I am starting to think they might actually get the water off lots of houses pretty soon. I am hearing about them lining up dredge barges and cranking them up. Those puppies move some water. They use about a 14" pipe and shoot water about 50' when it is half mud. Just pumping water would go faster.

How would you evaluate these electrical systems?

Gfretwell, you raise a VERY good point. I expect there will be a lot of "quick & dirty" "semi-temporary" repairs made just to get things up and running again- to be "done right" over the next few years as things return to normal.

Even if everything is bulldozed to make way for new construction, I am sure that folks will live in, and companies will operate from, all sorts of temporary structures, from tents on up.


New Orleans needs to follow the examples set by Chicago, San Francisco, Florida, and every other place that has had a major disaster- knock it all down, and make new to NEW codes. If that means building only after the area is filled to well above sea level, so be it.

Speaking for SF, and codes born of disaster, most of which are structural, they are more standards than code. What I mean is, for instance, it is a relitive standard, that if you have any exposure to the foundation, you bolt your sill plate, according to code. If you have any structural work, odds are a shear-wall will be involved. Of course any new work, all the above standards and codes would apply. But if you dont have any work done, odds are it doesnt get done, until too late. (Which reminds me, I have shear-walls and bolting to do...)

I imagine NOLA will have some highly scrutinized check list that will follow any natural disaster.

Something like...

• Structural damage
• Bio-hazard
• Toxic hazard
• Parasites

Another one for the bull-dozer... (I Don't mean to making light of it but...) I really don't think much of anything that has been sitting in the water can be saved. Many of those people will return to flat ground after all the inspections happen. There is a lot of stuff in that water. Even then, it will be very cost prohibative for many to return.

I was talking to my buddy who left after the storm again, (Who is going to Nantucket to work for a relitive for a few months) and we bounced a few ideas around... Parts of NOLA sink due to the weight of its own population, literlaly. Fill would only make things worse for stability of the levees. I suggested piers, but that would seem a little silly, a whole town as a board-walk, and a fire hazard beneath, and too expensive. He had lived up here in SF, and just north of here, in Sausilito, they have a whole community that live in house boats that float in a marsh of the bay. They rise and fall in the mud with the tide on concrete foundations. (1/2 of them are converted boats) Then I though, what about a combinmation of both? Floating concrete foundation, set on pin like piers within the corners of the building. Floods come, the house floats up. The water goes down, the house comes to rest in the same relitive place. Have flexible unions that run under the house for water, and electrical, etc. Its either that, or give up fighting mother nature and rename the place Venice, which has been a long-time local joke in the area. I don't know, the more I think about it, reguardless of the now national zeal to re-build the place, maybe its best not to.

With regards to FF Operations, I have to agree with Dave T.
With any Fire pump, you are only allowed to draught clean water.
Draughting salt water after dropping a 6" Suction line into the water would only complicates things, strainer or no strainer.
Putting sand and silt through a pump periphery can cause all sorts of problems.
Get sand into a bearing and see what happens.
There is an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure)here that says we are not allowed to draught sea water under any circumstances.
That is in combination with the corrosion factor.

Is the non-pumping of sea water to protect the fire equipment or to protect the burning structures?

It certainly wouldn't help in NO after the fact, but it would seem to me that suitably designed equipment could pump either sea water or dirty water, and perhaps the ability to do would be a reasonable design choice for equipment in flood prone areas.

On the other hand, doing so would certainly increase the cost of the equipment, possibly more that the probabilistic benefit.

I wonder if one could make some sort of nozzle that would act to aspirate dirty or sea water. You could perhaps double the volume of water pumped without having to move the dirty water through the pumping system. The pump would operate at low volume against high pressure, and at the nozzle you would get mixing to higher volume at lower pressure. Probably much less expensive than a sea water rated pump.

-Jon

as far this time i am typing on the post here the metro of New Orleans area i overlook the mistake when i told Mike [Trumpy] about the numbers of dewater pumps the correct figures is 118 if i catch it right and as i am typing now the metro de New Orleans have 26 pumps running but few other are not running due it was sumgered in water and have to clean up first and few other pumps required non standard HZ to order to run the large pumps [25 HZ et some are on DC also ] so in short while the portable pumpers are really pumping the water but the biggest one is pump No. 3 aka big daddy it will pump a MILLION gallon water a min [ 3.8 million liter a min ]but they have to ramp up slow before it will run at full throttle due the levees et dykes to advoid anymore damage but for other details i will post it more as the time go by


p.s. first three pumps are straght diesel driven and did remove water about a inch per hour [will let you know more details later ]

Merci, Marc

Trumpy, do you guys have a procedure/directive that would prohibit you from spaying chemicals on a fire?

The flood waters, so I hear, are full of chemicals, gasoline, ebloi, and such.

What happens if you spray this on a fire?

Could this be a reason they can't use the water?

Dnk.

Not a dumb question.

IMHO (and experience as an urban FF for the past 15 years) most urban departments (hydranted) don't have the experience or equipment to draft from standing water. They've been operating on a positive water supply since the City established one. The rural depts would be better at it.

In addition, due to the chemicals in the water (and debris) drafting would be a difficult endeavor at best. Unlike a "gabage pump" like we use to de-water basements, manholes and such, most fire pumps are small-vaned centrifugal pumps. Many would fail if subjected to the floodwaters for long periods of time.

Just my $0.02.

Doug

Thanks Doug. I have been hearing the same thing. I guess it is just a <city> firetruck thing.
I know our brush fire truck can suck water out of the proverbial "muddy hoof print".
It never occured to me when I see that truck running on a dwelling fire off the public water "grid".