ECN Forum
Posted By: rj covering panels with pictures, boards, ect. - 07/16/05 10:26 PM
Hello all it has been a long time since I have been on here. Hope everyone is doing well and staying busy. But I have a guestion. I am having a hard time with people place pictures, boards, and other things on panel boxes and I need to know where to look in the code that says this should not be done. I have found the 3ft rule but I have not found any thing else. So I was wondering if anyone could help me out?
Thanks, you all take care and be careful.
Strictly speaking IMO it could be seen as a workspace violation.

But geez, come on, is it really a safety problem?

Whats wrong with a little camouflage.
Are we talking commercial or residential?
Commercially a panel is rarely in a conspicous place.
Residentially I say let them do what ever they want as long as it's not permanent. I would not consider a removable panel or painting a workspace violation. Just move it out of the way and work. [Linked Image]
Just think of all the work we gan get when they drive the sixteen penny nail, to hang the picture on, directly into the SEU cable.
I did have a customer call a couple of weeks ago when he and a buddy were putting down plywood in the attic with sixteen pennys. When he tried to switch on the light in the dining room the breaker would trip. Go figure. He was sure that they had not done anything to cause the problem, untill I asked him what size nails he was using. At that exact moment I think he had one of those epiphany things.
I have twice posted pics in the forum showing examples of this 'camoflage.' One was a resturaunt where the wall was artfully painted with a mural, that made the panels darn near invisible; the other was an office that had hung a painting over the panel.

In both cases, access to the panel was not a problem; finding it was! In the office example, the tenant- who must have once put the painting up themselves- had no idea that there was a panel directly behind her desk!

I'm not sure that there ever will be a "solution" that satisfies everyone. Folks simply can't abide the sight of the panel- and it's a credit to the trade that they don't have to visit the panel very often!

Just be glad they haven't put a meat freezer- filled with 1000# of beef- in front of it!
I put it this way to the homeowner. If the fire dept. had to respond to a fire in your home, (or possibly storm damage) the first thing they need to do is kill the power! What if they can't find the main? Time wasted could cost a life.
Rick
Posted By: LK Re: covering panels with pictures, boards, ect. - 07/17/05 03:52 AM
We had an accounting department where they put a encased display in front of distribution panels, you would open the display case to access the panels, they had a card sort machine in this area, one of the young ladies had her hand pulled into the machine, the safety stop was not working, and the machine was very heavy so no one could get access to the plug, she was sceaming and bleeding , while everyone in a panic looked for the panel, Yes it is not a problem to hide a panel until someone was injured.
LK that is a fairly odd situation.

First a display case in front of a panel is IMO a far cry from a picture in front of a panel.

Second there is no requirement that a panel is visible, the panel could be on another floor in a locked closet so to say immediate access is required is IMO a stretch.

It sounds like the card sorting machines lack of disconnecting means was culprit IMO.
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It sounds like the card sorting machines lack of disconnecting means was culprit IMO.
Sounds like it to me.

Of course, in a similar situation, I was working on a machine with no less than three e-stops on it, one being well within reach. In agony I forgot it was there. [Linked Image]
Posted By: e57 Re: covering panels with pictures, boards, ect. - 07/17/05 06:09 PM
Often if I hear that an owner plans to place a picture over a panel to hide it, I will accomadate it by moving cables off center, and put some 3/4" ply above so the hanger can be in something solid, and put the hanger there myself. I would rather do it myself than have the homeowner do it. No one wants to see our work, and I'm happy to accomadate it. I just see it as another part of a good custom install. I would rather be involve in the proccess, than have someone do something dangerous, or create a hazard for me or someone else to work on in the future. And thats for interior sub-panels in residential. Commercial, most of my panels get a room to themselves. And very rarely is a main panel in any place where someone might want to hide it, although I am kind of sick of people planting trees and bushes in front of them. Another situation where I would rather help you hide it than have to fight though a bush to work on it later.
Posted By: LK Re: covering panels with pictures, boards, ect. - 07/17/05 07:25 PM
This hidden panel was unknown, to the plant electricians, it appeared when it was installed it was visible, and within site of this machine, the installation of the display cabinet, took away the within site, of the machine the plug would not be a disconnect due to the weight of the machine, safety switches do fail, I belive it is best to look at the whole situation , when covering or hiding panels.
The failure of the safety switch, may have been the cause of injury, but not having the ability to quickly locate the panel, did not help.
Les:
Unfortunatly, we have no ststewide property maintenance code that this would fall under. Once a job is finaled (CO/CA, etc) we (AHJ's) have no legal jurisdiction over covered/blocked panels, etc.

Heck, I heard a 'tale' of an EC who after the final on one house; took the bubble covers to the next house! It happened once, and, trust me, it won't happen again.

Jon
If this was an IBM sorter (080,082,083,084) opening any cover should stop it ... assuming the interlocks were not jumpered out. Checking the interlocks was part of every service call if the CE was doing his job.
Why on earth are all US panels painted the same dark grey? That's something I never understood! And the doors basically look the same since the age of porcelaine fuses... All European countries have light grey or mostly white panels, sometimes even with elaborately designed plastic doors.
Besides, most DIN rail panels are a lot smaller. A 2 row panel, which would take up to 36 single pole breakers is (just a rough guess) 10x14 inches, maybe even smaller!
Tex, get ready for a good laugh....but I swear this is true!

The "engineer wonks" in the industry, in particular the ones involved in making the code, are of the belief that bare metal is best- you never know when you'll need a ground! Their attitude is, well, if you MUST paint it, make sure the paint can be easily scratched away by locknuts, and "while there is no code as such, we prefer grey, as it looks like bare metal."

There was also concern over intruding on someone else's color.....heaven forbid we paint it white (looks dirty too easy, hospitals like white), or blue (can't confuse it with water lines now!), green (that's only for grounds, silly!), red (that for fire systems, isn't it?), etc.

And many manufacturer's will resent your claim that they all use the "same ugly grey." In truth, several of them have gone to great expense to trademark slightly different shades of grey, so their gear looks the same, but is 'distinctly different!'

As for overall appearance, these engineer and lawyer-driven manufacturers are more interested in FORCING yo to use their products, than in appealing to your tastes. Thus, the non-standard components, continual 'tweaking' of the NEC, etc.
Oh boy...
Panels used to be about the same grey here too, but they were always painted by the customer. When Diazed screw fuses came out of fashion only main fuse and meter boxes were that color. Breaker panels have mostly been light grey and the newer ones are white or off-white. Also there's been a recent effort to get rid of all metal surfaces close to electricity, so most panels are PVC, if they do have a metal door it's hinged on PVC and carefully isolated from the rest of the panel. Steel switch boxes have been banned for new work (other than extra heavy duty industrial) for more than 30 years I think.
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