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Posted By: e57 Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 01:42 AM
Show up at a job resi romex remodel to help out / clean-up afer one of our leads thats been on with us for a while. (Resi for 'bout a year or so) I have been on some slam dancing commercial jobs for most of the time he's been with us. Busy year! So I haven't seen him operate really, unless it was AT one of my much larger jobs, where I run the show.

So anyway, I show up, start walking the job doing a little QC... Cans aren't straight, need an outlet there, then I notice, everything is live. All of it, everything, whips out of the wall at eye level, switch legs, every outlet, everything.

So I ask him, "how come everything is on?"
"Oh, I do that so if the rockers, or carpenters mess something up, they'll know right away - I do it all the time."
So I'm nice about it, "So what makes you think that its OK - before I rattle off a list of safety hazards?"
His answer, "(Our PM, name ommited) says to do it."
Really?> Yeah, really. So I call, 'whats with this...' The answer is the same: "so if the rockers, or carpenters mess something up, they'll know right away..."
So then I am asked, "So you don't do it?" -"NO! Workplace safety, liability, where should I begin?" So next thing I know, I am debating this with the BOSS.

Anyway, sorry for the long narative, but have I lost my mind? Anyone else think this is an acceptable practice? Am I the only one who doesn't do it?

Now don't get me wrong, a few temp GFI outlets, or a few temp lights in a dark area - fine. But the whole job?
Posted By: Joey D Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 02:12 AM
I was in a habit of this when I was first in the trade. I though the same thing, the rockers were so careless with the roto zips the were cutting the wires at the M/C clamps in the box. After having it out with them I turned everything on to let them know what was going to happen.
I know it's a stupid idea , now anyways, and back charge hurts more than anything to these guys anyways
Posted By: hbiss Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 02:32 AM
Gotta be the stupidest thing I ever heard. Who would expect any of that to be hot? Lucky nobody was killed.

-Hal
Posted By: Tiger Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 02:59 AM
+1 with Hal's comments. It's a reckless disregard for job safety and the lives of the workers. It would have never occured to me to do something that careless.

Dave
Posted By: IanR Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 10:53 AM
Oh yeah, it's pefecly acceptable. If you want to get your @$$ sued off when some one gets KILLED! NOT acceptable [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by IanR (edited 07-14-2005).]
Posted By: IanR Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 10:56 AM
Oh yeah, tell him and you're PM that they can also be charged with manslaughter when(not if, WHEN) that happens!
Posted By: DougW Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 01:05 PM
Wires hanging out of boxes left live?

[Linked Image]

Not on my job site... especially not if I'm the "authorized employee" responsible for it.
Posted By: Big Ed Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 03:18 PM
Actually I think that the prosecutor could push for homocide. The power was WILLFULLY left on in an attempt to shock the other crafts. They were TRYING to. Intent implys murder, not manslaughter.

Stupid, stupid practice. I understand the aggrivation at the rockers & painters, but dude, killing them isn't the answer.

If you kill him, he won't learn nothin'!
Posted By: Ray97502 Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/14/05 11:26 PM
No way...It's hard to beleive that any electrician would follow that instruction...

But you could give the PM and the BOSS a RotoZip and let them rock a live house ( let the boss rock and the PM follow with the Zip) ...Just kidding.

Don't do it they might be obstenate (that's polite way of saying stupid which has already been proven) enought to try.
Posted By: growler Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 12:22 AM
I'm of a different opinion. I think it just great if his boss and PM kill a few rockers. I can't afford the liability myself, but have always wanted to. I've wanted to drag them out and strangle them with their own guts. Just a few years ago sheet-rockers could cut a hole that fit around a box better with a key hole saw than the people today can with a roto zip. Now we need to buy box inserts to keep them from destroying the wire. We should be able to back charge for every wire damaged and not a taping charge, I'm talking re-pull. Do we get to destroy the work of others just to get our jobs done faster. All the cost of a shoddy rock job get passed along to the electrician. There should never be a time when a jumbo plate is needed. The code says 1/8" around the box, when was the last time you saw that inforced. GOOD HUNTING.
Posted By: derater Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 12:52 AM
This is an easy one.Tell the GC you've had trouble in the past w/ the 'zip-equipped' rockers and you WILL charge for any re-hab to hacked wires.Then do it.
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 03:02 AM
I used to work with this one guy who used to bring along a gas powered chain saw to the job. He used to use it to cut very large ( We are talking 36" square here") quick holes in the completed walls wherever the roto zippers cut our romex. Pretty soon the drywall guy's were back to using drywall knives, pencil, measuring tape, and a T- square for layout.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 03:09 AM
Well,
I guess that we've found a new level of stupidity.
Personally, if I found someone on a job site doing that sort of thing, we'd both have to go to hospital to get my foot out of thier back-side!. [Linked Image]
I'm reminded of a case here a few years back, where a Builder fell from the balcony of a 2 storey home during it's construction, merely because he moved some loose lighting wires that were in his way.
The Electrician responible for the work was sentenced to 5 years in prison.
The builder never worked again and he is in a wheel-chair.
Obviously, personal initiative has to come into this somewhere, I mean who in thier right mind would leave live wires just hanging there?!!.
GFI or no GFI, I'm glad this doesn't happen a lot.
This is just rediculous.
Posted By: e57 Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 03:37 AM
I'm gonna pass this on to that PM, as I think its time she RE-thought this issue. She's been at this for at least 20+ years, just makes you wonder.....

Anyway, back when I started the trade, or the construction aspect of it at least, my time in the service was much different work. I thought of putting some sort of alarm on the rough. Ya know, a few relays on say a door bell transformer, or maybe an ear piercing siren, that would go off if you cut or shorted any wiring. Never did it! Would be a cool inventive item though. Thought of electrifying my bike and car to keep thiefs at bay. Still do at times.... But not kill any schmuck on the job. Normally, I don't even land the panel until finish. Or like I said, some temp power, or lights. And for that you had better be nice to me.
Posted By: LK Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 04:08 AM
The thought that anyone would follow directions from what appears to be a certifed idiot, is beyond belief, and sheet rockers damage, well that repair work should be covered in the contract, let them tear up all your work, then direct their attention to the clause that states all repairs to damaged work will be prepaid, we did some damage to plumbing work and found we had to prepay to get the work done, none of this silly charge back, which ends up never getting paid.
Posted By: Ray97502 Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 06:27 AM
Hey e57 that's not a bad idea at all a little low voltage circuit on the Romex that pulls in a NC 120V contact on a relay connected to a loud siren at the pnl. But it wouldn't work very well for taps on the circuit.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 06:46 AM
On a similar note to the above methods of getting the point across to other trades:

Some years ago, doing an install of cinema sound systems. Needed the observation port glass left out so I could install the emitter panels for the Assisted listening system. (IR headsets)

Meeting with PM and glass guy, agreed that right after lunch I would install panels (about 5 minutes each, 8 total units) with glass installed right behind me. No problem, right?

Return from lunch to find ALL eight ports installed (crappy frame spec, glass is supposed to be easily removable for cleaning. These were RIVETED together!) Called PM, who was also surprised. Called glass guy who had left site, he gave us both "too bad, deal with it" attitude.

Went to truck, returned with sledge hammer, I removed all eight glass myself! Told PM to send me a bill for replacement glass and labor. Never did get charged. [Linked Image]

Too bad this guy was such a horse's patoot, all other trades on that install were very pleasant and easy to coordinate with. And this was really the only bad apple in the 20+ years I've been doing this.

I have learned that the other trades are more willing to cooperate if you approach them with the angle of "Here's what I'll be doing/needing, just want to get together to make sure I don't hold you up." Surprisingly, with that approach, except for the glass guy above, I've never had problems with other trades on any installs. In fact they usually do me favors with no static! (An occasional cold six-pack does wonders too!)

Most of my work requires coordination with electrical, HVAC(Xenon lamphouse exhaust), sheetrock, paint, flooring(to get the heavy stuff placed wihout damage), and glass.

As for leaving the rough live, totally stupid and uncalled for. [Linked Image]

While some people will never learn, I would like to think my approach would prevent the vindictive destruction of my wiring/work.

Amazing how two different ways of asking the same question/making the same point will get totally different results.
Posted By: echandler Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 05:11 PM
One thing not mentioned - what happens when the trades are not there and the owner(s) show up to look at the progress. They are the ones who will be the least-knowledgable of the dangers to these live wires hanging out all over the place.

Also, don't forget those meddling kids who love showing up at construction sites to have a look. Guess who get's sued?

Eric
NJ
Posted By: LearJet9 Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/15/05 05:46 PM
Like everyone else we've had that happen to us. My boss was very calm as he took his hammer and made an opening large enough to repair or repull the affected cable. This was always covered as SOP in our contracts. When the rockers came back they raised hell but made the repairs. It was actually kinda' fun watching him swing away at the newly rocked walls!
Bill
Posted By: e57 Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 12:48 AM
Just for clarification, BOSS (Owner) is not into the practice, I have worked for this guy for some time, and if it means the slightest liability, he'll have nothing to do with it. Boss/PM/etc., is the one I was debating with, she's only been with the company about <two years, and brought a few people with her, who apparently have been leaving stuff live.

As for damage, I don't land anything most times, protect my stuff well where required, and document line diagrams and general path during rough. And if anything get trashed after I leave, I have an array of tracers, TDR, and other methods of finding stuff, which also involves a hammer.

Carpenters used 16's on shear once. I located the short, got a witness, bashed the rock, pulled the nail, and laid out for demo for the repair to my cable. Simular situation for a plumber who did some changes after I left, bashed it open, to expose where he had set the wire on fire. Rockers almost never hit my stuff, all of the conductors entering are tucked way back in the corners of large boxes, only time I have a problem is if the bury it, and I find that too. You trash my work, I will find it. I am that confident! I double check all work, and walk every circuit before I leave, I don't test it either. If it don't work when I come back, I either forgot a cable, (Twice in ten years I think) and it my fault, or some one did something, and I'll spend all day looking, and someone will pay when I do. I can be a premadonna about it.... And proud of it.

Oh, that job is dead except for temp power at the bath GFI's now.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 01:05 AM
I've had to think about this one for a while, as I am not one to take harsh actions quickly...

Don't heat up the wires. Don't just turn off the breaker- disconnect them as well. Disobey any orders to act differently. Some things are worth getting fired over!

If you are fired, "drop a dime" to everyone you can think of, citing an "imminent hazard to life."

As the electrician, YOU, and not the foreman, GC, boss, customer, or anyone else is the "expert," They are not qualified to make electrical decisions. Period.

If you are not in a position to make the job safe, walk away. The practice you describe is simply criminal.
Posted By: e57 Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 06:10 AM
Reno', I shut it off not long after I got there. And I suspect there will be a pow-wow soon concerning the topic.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 10:59 AM
Mark,
I agree, I think that there has to be something said about this practice (if you can call it that).
Sure, I'm not against livening up sections of an installation where they have been finished, but where I draw the line is where people could be injured or killed by the actions/inactions of a bad worker.
I also agree with John (renosteinke), where the guy that is on site, should know what the H*ll he is doing.
He is after all the most competent person with respect to Electricity, he should at least act like it!!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 11:11 AM
Quote
"If you kill him, he won't learn nothin'."

LOL [Linked Image]


Is'nt there a saw they use in hospitals that only cuts plaster of Paris?

Alan


[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 07-16-2005).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 11:55 AM
Yup. It's just oszillating, so it won't hurt anything else. At school we used a similar tool for cutting fiber reinforced polyester. Quite nice to use after you got the hang of it.
Posted By: Kelley Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 01:46 PM
I beleive that a floor heat company sells a type of alarm that if the cable is damaged an alarm goes off. I believe it is battery powered.
Kelley
Posted By: growler Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/16/05 03:23 PM
They have a test for new mobile homes that should be required for residential wiring. It gives a complete test of insulation and I think this would put an end to roto zips. Check out the information from the slaughter company. The hipot tester. http://www.hipot.com/index.asp
This is a fast and easy test, unlike megging.
Posted By: nesparky Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/18/05 01:25 AM
One trick I learned and use at job sites is to have a large bouble bitted ax with me the day the rockers show up. I let them see me with it as I mark the floor where my boxes are. Almost always one of them will ask me what it is for. I tell them that is what I will use to open up the walls to replace damaged wiring all the way back to the panel and they will be back charged for the work. I also tell them it is what I use to find burried boxes. Rarely have had to use it.

As for leaving the panel hot. No Way. I tell them to roll out thier cords to the temp panel. Also tell them that if the temp lighting is not enough to get portable lights and roll out a cord to the temp panel.
I will not energize a panel untill trim out. I do not install breakers untill all receptacles,switches and light fixtures are installled that that panel feeds.

[This message has been edited by nesparky (edited 07-17-2005).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Leaving the rough live. - 07/19/05 10:26 AM
Look,
As far as I'm concerned.
You don't leave wires or anything like it energised.
Simply just that.
I've been to a few places where people have been fatally injured because of some idiot thinking that they would protect thier work from "meddlers".
Believe me sunshine, if you want to do that sort of thing, get ready for a prison cell with Bubba.
I wish you well!. [Linked Image]
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