ECN Forum
Posted By: Peter Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 02:57 AM
How square should comduit be cut? 90º 87º
On a 2" EMT, is 1/8" off from one side to the other acceptable?
I ask this because many of my co-workers use sawzalls to cut the conduit and the results, I feel, are horrible. As I mentioned, 1/8" per 2" and the cut itself is very ragged. Comments are appreciated.
~Peter
Posted By: BobH Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 03:12 AM
Seems a little overzealous to me. As long as there are no burrs and grounding integrity is not compromised, I don't see a concern with a cut that's not perfectly square.
Posted By: DougW Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 04:13 AM
One of the reasons I prefer a tubing cutter for the small stuff... Thought about a mini-chop saw, but then it's another tool to tote and find an outlet for...
Posted By: e57 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 06:54 AM
Dare I say it.... Its hard when you try, easier if you don't

Most people who cut pipe all day will get a straighter cut by eye, than trying to shoot for 90. If your consintrating too much on it, it seems your cut will drift more, while you try to fight it. 87 is acceptable, rather than wasting pipe, or worse backing up to re-aim an already started cut.

90 great, 87 fine, too much more than that you'll start to feel it when you pull, and thats a little unsettling.

As for the saws all I completely agree! I have a porter cable that just ripps pipe apart. I only use it for scrap and demo. For the stuff that actuall goes in, is done with a band saw.

Recently I saw on the supply house counter, a mini-bandsaw. Fantastic idea, I have been waiting for.... But, it was some wierd brand, and cordless, which means its toast when they fold, and it breaks.
Posted By: e57 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 08:42 AM
This is that bandsaw, I saw....
http://www.stouttool.com/index.asp


http://www.mytoolstore.com/stout/stondex.html




[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 04-05-2005).]
Posted By: zapped208 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 09:51 AM
Peter,- Tell your guys to slowly let the sawzall do the cutting and less "pushing" through the cut.
I use a sawzall all the time, looks like it was cut with a band saw.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 11:01 AM
Sawzall user here.

But get the right blade, them 14 teeth/in bi- metals will tear up the pipe, and your left filing and reaming alot.

I use the 32 teeth/in ones, and they do a fine job.

Agreed that band saws are alot better.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 12:51 PM
We don't use steel conduit down here in NZ, apart from in heavy Industrial areas, but for all of the PVC stuff, I use a Tube cutter.
It gives a nice clean, straight edge. [Linked Image]
Pushing a saw through a cut always makes the blade go all wonky. [Linked Image]
Posted By: frank Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 10:58 PM
I often use a tube cutter on small EMT jobs up to 1".We used them in school but some guys hate them.Like Trumpy said a tube cutter dosen't leave a burr on the outer edge of the pipe and garantees a square cut.I also use a stepper bit for reamming.Beleve it or not it puts a nice smooth uniform taper in place the inner edge.Any cut that didn't at least look staight was not accepted.

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 04-05-2005).]
Posted By: nesparky Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/05/05 11:02 PM
Sawzall user here
Like was said above the correct blade and let the sawzall do the work. Just hold the pipe steady and apply light pressure. Then ream it properly. It's easy and fairly quick.
Posted By: golf junkie Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/06/05 02:53 AM
I use a sawzall for probably 90% of my pipework.

We do have two portable bandsaws that we will use on big jobs. Mostly because sawzall blades get expensive when doing a lot of cutting. Both tools will make straight or crooked cuts depending on the operator. The bandsaw is slightly faster, but the tool is heavier to handle and is less versatile.

I don't like pipe cutters. They make a nice smooth edge on the outside but raise a big sharp burr in the inside where it matters.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/06/05 03:43 AM
I don't do EMT for a living but in a recent home project I used my side grinder and it was pretty good. The small amount of burr could be knocked out with my pliers.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/06/05 09:46 PM
Long-Time hacksaw user, 1st year Sawzall user (except for larger sized Conduits - always used Sawzall for these).

Having the Cordless Sawzall now (Milwaukee type - 18 VDC cordless w/ 2.4 Ah Battery Packs) has altered my cutting protocols and beliefs so dramatically, I have contemplated placing the Hacksaws in Dumpsters for Permanent logistical storage!
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
(Translation: Toss the Hacksaws in the trash!).

Portable Bandsaw and Side Grinder have also been Long-Time used tools, when cutting conduit sizes of 1½" and up.
Definitely for Unistrut cuts.

***
BTW, Milwaukee is introducing a Cordless Portable Bandsaw - using the 24 VDC, 3.0 Ah Battery.
***

As to cuts on Conduits of ½" to 1", having the Conduit secure is the key to achieve repetitive successful "close-to 90°" square cut results.

Secure it by either:
<OL TYPE=A>

[*] Clamp the Conduit down to your Materials Cart (or other commonly used device),


[*] Hold Conduit down with your Foot - usually by setting it on top of a Board,


[*] Stabilize the Conduit by "Bridging" it with your legs (wedged between the back of one knee, squat down so it is on top of the other leg) - have done this for many years and still results in the most stable, simple, readily available and successful technique,


[*] Having an "Assistant Cutting Technician" hold the Conduit.
</OL>

A slight variance off true 90° cut should not cause any problems.

When it comes to angles of 60° and less, along with Conduit not fully seated into a fitting - or both together, then I could say we have an addressable issue! (or two!)

These may result in:
  • Fish Tape leader getting wedged into the void spot(s), making it really difficult to push in the Tape,
  • Insulation getting damaged while pulled in through a point of exertion - mainly on a Coupling area in close proximity of back-to-back 90°s, or 90°-offset/kicks,
  • Allow Water to enter the Conduit.


My 2¢
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Scott35
Posted By: Peter Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 12:49 AM
Appreciate the replies.
My current approach is to stabilize the conduit [2"] with 12LC ViceGrip large locking clamp. I have a tubing cutter and I use that to score a 90º. Then a 32 tpi Lennox hacksaw ro do the cutting -- changing the position of the clamp.
Then a touch-up with a large half-round file. Also a plumber's or machinist's swivel deburring tool [Vargas].
I post this because I got fired for doing quality work like this.
~Peter
Posted By: Dave55 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 01:08 AM
My guess is that you got fired for some other reason than quality workmanship, Peter (maybe spending too much time on something that the boss could care less about). Don't let it get you down. People are always looking for a good craftsman. Good luck to you in finding a better job with a better boss.

Dave
Posted By: iwire Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 11:20 AM
Pete I could not fire you but I would proably have you removed from my job.

Quote
My current approach is to stabilize the conduit [2"] with 12LC ViceGrip large locking clamp. I have a tubing cutter and I use that to score a 90º. Then a 32 tpi Lennox hacksaw ro do the cutting -- changing the position of the clamp.
Then a touch-up with a large half-round file. Also a plumber's or machinist's swivel deburring tool

Pete I am sure you have a great cut, better than the factoory end. [Linked Image]

I got to say though if you could not pick up the pace I can not use you on the job. We not building the spaceshuttle [Linked Image], it's EMT a reasonably straight and burr free cut is all thats needed.

Part of being a craftsman IMO is knowing where to move faster.

Most of our guys use a cordless sawzal and a uni-bit on a cordless to ream it.

I would put the practiced guys sawzall cuts right beside your cuts and I do not think the small difference will be worth the cost to production.

JMO, Bob
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 11:51 AM
Unfortunate as this reply may sound, I am with iwire on this one.

Not saying we are passing up quality for quanity, far from it.
Posted By: BobH Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 01:03 PM
That's also why I mentioned the word 'overzealous'. The first contractor I worked for would've given me a few verbal insults as to my speed and then that would be that. Out the door.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 10:27 PM
I didn't catch the part about the hacksaw before I posted. I have a hacksaw on the truck in case my power saws break, but I haven't used it in years. I'm way too old for a hacksaw.

Try getting something flat and flexible like a piece of paper and line it up on the cut. Mark all the way around with a sharp black marker, throw the pipe against your knee, and hit the saw switch. A quick hit with a reamer or four-in-hand, and you're done.

Dave
Posted By: DougW Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 11:13 PM
My tubing cutter (usually) never sees the inside of a conduit... just enough to score it about 1/2way through, then 'snap' with a bender or over the knee. Hit it with a reamer / handle of a pair of channellocks and in it goes.

When I used to use a hacksaw, a fast and efficient method I learned from my foreman was to brace it against the ladder - there are usually two rivets that hold each step in place on each side rail. Put the conduit between 'em and then put your knee up against it. The rivets keep it from sliding, and then you just cut along the ladder.

Be careful - we had one apprentice who chewed through the leg of his ladder over a year's period by not keep the blade off the rail! [Linked Image]

Another variant (once again for 1/2" EMT) was to drill out one of the step rivets on each side, and replace it with a 1/4 - 20 bolt threaded into an I-beam clamp that had the setscrew removed and was secured with the mouth "up". Just drop your stick in there, and you don't need your knee to keep it in one place. It also works as a spooler for feeding wire off reels. Of course, you can't slide your ladder over anything on it's face anymore, but...
Posted By: iwire Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/08/05 11:19 PM
Quote
Another variant (once again for 1/2" EMT) was to drill out one of the step rivets on each side, and replace it with a 1/4 - 20 bolt

DO NOT do this if there is any possibility of an OSHA visit to the job.

Repairing / Painting / Modifying a ladder in any way can result in fines.

You should see our company dumpster and all the cut up ladders. Anything at all wrong with the ladder and it ends up cut up and thrown out.
Posted By: Peter Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 01:20 AM
Dave 55 -- thank you for your encouragement. I need it.
Iwire and others,
This is more difficult. I have always believed in doing the best job I am capable of. My way might take an additional one minute apiece for a total of five pieces. What is the value of an extra minute over a live span of the project of 20~30 years?
And what is the cost if a poorly deburred cut eventually scraps through the insulation of those 3/0 cables sometime in the future? I do not like falling victim to the lure of the Almighty Penny.
As for support during the cut, another dodge is to pass the conduit through the smaller opening in the web of the bender and wedge it on the floor, tripod style.
Someone mentioned rejecting cut which aren't square. But sloppy cuts are probably acceptable as long as there ore no burrs and it's not so bad that the integrity of the connection is compromised. After all, the inspector does not inspect this. You only have your pride to live up to.
I must admit that I have a disadvantage in this field since I come from a background in maintenance. One problem is that you have to deal with the shortcomings of construction short cuts. Another is there is less emphasis on speed but rather reliability.
~Peter
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 03:16 AM
Peter,

Send me an E-mail regarding this topic and your work experience.

Thx.

Scott35
Posted By: e57 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 05:22 AM
Peter,

I picked up this trade in the Marines, where if you fell asleep in theory classes by the most boring man on earth, you stood at attention with a bucket of water on your head. And later in the feild, I had a Warrent Officer who would have you do 100 push-ups for every degree of bend you were off.

That said, I have also in my early days been laid off by a hard ended boss once who finished with, "You do fantastic work, just wish you did more of it." And after running guys myself for a while now, I can accept that. It bothered me at the time, but he did drop me off at another job-site to get on another crew that needed me.

I have also walked off jobs because "I don't know how to do hack work!"

Theres a fine line for most employers, and finding that line is key to a healthy relationship. I have had guys that I make do things over, not just because I didn't like it, but our customers would find it unacceptable as well. (Mostly designers - in their showrooms.) I have also had guys that take too long for stuff and I have to "move" them. I have to stand there and drive them to do things faster. But I start out by giving them ways of doing it faster.

I have worked for a lot of different people, and all expect different things. Sometimes its hard to find that balance.

For you: And it is obvious you take pride in your work. But believe it or not those pennies and dimes do matter, it is really competitive out there, so working speed does too. See if you can find that quanity/quality balance on the next job. It may take an investment in a band saw, you'll be happy with the cut, and the boss will be happy with the speed. Then again, he should provide one for you... IMO
Posted By: iwire Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 09:16 AM
Peter I feel I may run long here but I want you to know where I am coming from with my statements.

First can I ask you to read e57's (Mark') comments again. I think he has some great information in that post.

Quote
I have always believed in doing the best job I am capable of.


I have no doubt of that and many companies will be grateful for that commitment. [Linked Image]

Quote
My way might take an additional one minute apiece for a total of five pieces.

Pete there is no 'might' about it, your way does take longer. As a boss I am not worried about 5 pieces, I have to worry about 100s to 1000s of repetitive activities.

If the other guys do it 15 seconds and you do it in 60 seconds your production will be 1/4 of the other guys. This applies if its a 5 minute or 5 month project. It is not pennies we are counting it adds up quickly.

Quote
What is the value of an extra minute over a live span of the project of 20~30 years

Pete unfortunately there is little value (other than pride) in it if both ways last the same amount of time.

Quote
And what is the cost if a poorly deburred cut eventually scraps through the insulation of those 3/0 cables sometime in the future?

A lot, no doubt about it.

This is where, in my opinion part of a craftsman's skill is knowing what is necessary over what looks pretty.

Believe me I do not want call backs for anything.

I am working a job now that having a worker like you would make me happy. We have thousands of shielded MC terminations to make. Without careful attention you can ground fault the shield which will have to be located and repaired. This is a case where I will gladly let you have the time to make a fault free connection.

Quote
I do not like falling victim to the lure of the Almighty Penny.

Do any of us, but it is a fact of life.

I doubt you have had a chance to learn some of what goes on before any workers see the job site.

Someone has a grand vision of a great new building with every convenience. Plans are drawn and put out to bid. These plans often show the electrical as a 'pipe job' no MC, custom lighting fixtures, all kinds of fancy building automation controls etc.

Then the bids come back and reality sinks in. They can not pay for the job, cuts must be made. What are you going to cut? The nice looking lobby furnishings or the unseen electrical work?

Short story the project gets 'value engineering' our price keeps dropping to the point we are taking the base bid for peanuts and hope to make up the loss with extras.

Pete you know we have done some of the large home improvement stores, these are a perfect example of a job that has no money in it to make the electrical 'pretty'.

They supply almost all the stock for the job including the big ticket items like lighting and switchgear.

This means we do not make much on materials.

So now we have to make money on just the labor, but wait they build tons of stores they know how many hours it takes per sq ft better than the EC does.

To make money at this type of job you will pretty much have to do it faster than any other EC before you. [Linked Image]

There will be no meaningful extras on this type of job, they know what they want when the prints go out.

Quote
But sloppy cuts are probably acceptable as long as there ore no burrs and it's not so bad that the integrity of the connection is compromised.

Pete I do not want anyone to make sloppy cuts. I want people that are willing to adapt to different methods. With practice good cuts can be made without all the steps you describe.

Think of it like bending pipe, with practice you can make great offsets without measuring.

Quote
After all, the inspector does not inspect this. You only have your pride to live up to.

The inspectors look at darn little of what we do, I work like they will take it apart. Pride in my work keeps me coming in. I can be proud that I provided a quality job and did it quickly and efficiently.

Quote
I must admit that I have a disadvantage in this field since I come from a background in maintenance.

Your right it is a different world, I have done both also.

We pay much more than a maintenance job, we also provide you with the right tools, safety equipment and stay after the GC to provide a safe work enviorment. For this we expect you to go home tired sore and dirty. You will drive to the job site and work 7hrs 40min every day to get paid for your eight.

Quote
One problem is that you have to deal with the shortcomings of construction short cuts.

True and sometimes those short cuts where the fault of the contractors, just as likely the short cuts where cost cutting measures by the person footing the bill.

Some people are happy with a KIA others want a Mercedes. There is no shame in providing a KIA to those that want one.

Bob
Posted By: golf junkie Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 03:02 PM
Well said Bob.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 03:04 PM
The thing I looked at first when I was inspecting was consistancy. If I saw some very pretty work next to some less so I assumed there were different standards on all of the work. It makes you look harder to be sure the grounds are made up correctly and the wires were sized right. Ugly work can still be code compliant but if it is inconsistant I assume they probably forgot things.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 05:46 PM
My first year as an EC, I called my mentor and asked why inspectors didn't look deeper at my work. He told me to take it as a compliment. If they don't like what they see, they will look deeper.

Dave
Posted By: Active 1 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 08:18 PM
When starting for a new company you should try to get a feel or even ask what they want. Percision or speed. It does not have to be one or the other but there is some trade off. The same could be said about the quality of bends. If work has been done look around to size up the quality.

If others are doing the same work try to keep the same speed or better.

If your cutting big pipe ask if they have a power tool to cut it. Let them decide what you use. An experianced piping electrician should be able to cut tubing reasonable with any of the common power tools.

The key is to give your boss what they want. If you don't like their standards still give them what they want while you look for another job. Then you would have a better reputation when leaving the company.

Also if the work is exposed and not high up then the company may want more perfection.

Tom
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/10/05 11:52 PM
Go to www.nema.org and search for the installation of ..... and you will be surprised when you find and download their "free" standards, even the most seasoned mechanics will learn something too.

I believe that the cuts should be "straight and square" this is what most fittings will be designed for when metal tubing and conduit is used.
Posted By: Peter Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/12/05 03:33 AM
Actually, I do have a portable bandsawm a beautiful Harbor Freight, but for the limited number of cuts [5] I didn't feel it worth dragging out of my vehicle.
As for the sawzall, the problem is the blade is supported only at one end. If you turn it on, you will notice the tip flops around in a pie shape. OK for reducing 8' pieces to fit in a 6' dumpster but little else.
No since you guys have invested so much time on this, I will reward you with this true story--
I had a race with a guy named Christo. Not a deliberate race but we happened to each start to wire two parallel rows of eight drop in lights at the same time. I was just starting my number seven as he was finighing his number eight.
So I'm slow.
But wait.
All of my MC cables were not only connected but also SUPPORTED. His were not supported. Furthermore, he did not leave enough slack for his cables to be supported [batwings on safety wires].
~Peter
Posted By: e57 Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/12/05 04:42 AM
Before I head off to that other post... I dont speak 'Rushing' [Linked Image] Get it, 'rushing' HA, HA!

Its a good way to mess up a job, and take more time by doing it twice.

As for the band-saw... Break it out. Do you have a folding two wheeler. I do, half my tool box goes on it as I leave the truck and a 2' nylon strap hangs the band-saw on the handles of it. The handles dont make the most stable cutting platform, but work in a pinch. Cup of coffee is usually stuck to it as well.
Posted By: iwire Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/12/05 08:45 AM
Quote
As for the sawzall, the problem is the blade is supported only at one end. If you turn it on, you will notice the tip flops around in a pie shape.

Your right that can happen. [Linked Image]

But all of us answering here are quite familiar with sawzal operation. [Linked Image]

Regardless of the flopping blade straight cuts can be produced with a sawzall. It's just a matter of practice and not having the 'it can't be done' attitude. [Linked Image]

A band saw is easer and quieter but I do not have a cordless one yet. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: Fred Re: Quality of conduit cuts - 04/12/05 11:35 AM
The secret to a square cut on conduit with a sawzall is keeping a sharp blade in the tool and the shoe tight against the pipe through the entire cut. Like any other task in this trade it takes practice, practice, practice.
© ECN Electrical Forums