Should the ground(ing) of receptacles be up or down? Which would be best? Why?

My old boss liked 'em up. His argument was that if something metal were to strike the plug, dislodging it from the receptacle, the metal would be more likely to touch the ground prong rather than the hot, say a cat knocks a lamp over or something.

In residential, I put them in "ground down" unless the customer wants them up, simply because I've run into problems with things like night-lights, CO2 detectors (plug-in type) and appliance cords (90 degree angle type)that have to be plugged in upside down if the grounds are up.

And, most home-owners like them to look like a face...

In commercial applications, I put the grounds up unless otherwise suggested.

Up or Down?




[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 08-27-2002).]

Could you please elaborate, Mr. Tedesco?

I would tend to think that the photos in the link above would be more a product of stainless steel having too high of a resistance to cause a "complete" short (full 15 or 20 amps depending on circuit) rather than the placement of the U ground.

Perhaps you could shed some light and it would make more sense to me.

Might be a good argument for NM covers...

Grounds up for safety. End of story. Usually after explaining to the customer the benefits of the grounds being on top they agree. I don't care about night lites and the like being upside down. Safety is the number one rule....not looks or convenience.

Electrician,
The NEC code making panels do NOT consider this a safety issue. There have been many proposals to require the ground to be up, but they all have been rejected.
Don(resqcapt19)

What exactly are the arguments for ground up anyway...?

"..for safety reasons..." just isn't explanatory enough for me...

Go for it Don, most of us have no idea what rationale's have been presented..

The proposals mostly cite incidents like those in Joe's photos. Some also try to make the case that the ground will be the last to break contact with the ground up, but that is not a factual statement. The CMP has not be impressed enough to make it a code rule. There has not been a submission showing the number of these incidents, or one that cited personal injury or property damage other than to the cover plate, cord cap and receptacle.
I just don't like how they look with the ground up, may it is beacuse I worked my apprenticship with a jw who had installed knob and tube. In knob and tube with the 2 wire receptacles the hot was always on the right, when the 3 wire receptacles came out, the electricians continued to place the hot on the right and this put the ground down.
Don(resqcapt19)

Thank you Don,
you somewhat date yourself in mention to K&T, so comes the next Q...do you remember this "up or down" ground being debated when the 3 wire receptacles came out?

For that matter, when did they come out?

Sparky,
I didn't say that I installed the knob and tube, only that my journeyman did. The change over to 3 wire was mostly complete by the time I started in the trade. I don't think there would have been much debate beacuse of the fact that all of the installers at that time would have been trained to put the hot on the right.
Don(resqcapt19)

Especially now, I'm reccomending up . I had the luxury of watching fireworks in my own livingroom . I was watching tv one night when a picture I had hung decided to let loose and slide down the wall . Yup , was hung with metal wire and right above a receptacle which was hiding behind my very soft and flammable sofa ,where my lamp was plugged in . When the picture fell it just knocked the plug out enough to expose both prongs and yet still remain energized .The wire from the picture ended up across these live prongs throwing sparks everywhere until it melted away . Choice is yours though . Me , I kinda like my new home just the way it is .

Had a walk-through safety inspection after an FHA inspector had failed a few things... one on his list was a kitchen receptacle that was ground-up and he didn't like it that way... They didn't notice that it wasn't a GFCI... I ended up looking like the bad guy and haven't heard anything since...

My lesson? As far as grounds up or down... do what the customer wants and if anything happens, the code backs you up. I'd rather get the job than argue with a customer with only opinion to back me up on these matters...

Straight talk 66'....i've toddeled behind those FHA ( fulla hot air ) guys too.

And if they want to buy it, i'll sell it..

Totally agree with you. Just want to add that with 90 degree plugs, they are also more likely to pull out when connected ground up.
Wm. Grenier

The local inspector gives this reason for grounds down...

"...so they'll look like a face..."

I'm not kidding... he was sort of sheepish when he said it too. This was well after my first post above...

My understanding is that lamp cords are almost always two-wire two prong non-grounding. With the absence of the u-ground, how would ground-up be advantageous in this circumstance?

I also feel that shorting across the neutral isn't much different that shorting across the equipment ground...How would this be safer with grounds up?

'66,

The explanation I've heard is that with the ground prong up there is more chance that something falling on it would be safely deflected (or at least it would have a 50/50
chance of not contacting the ungrounded prong.

I would agree with this in principle, but many plugs are made to plug in with the groung down, and it does look more "normal" that way. I just got back from Kennedy Space Center and all t6he ones I saw "looked like a face".

Bill

If you step on a cord with a ground prong, ground down will most likely break the ground contact last. I like down, and to the right for horizontal.

Steve,

I believe that the Plugs and Receptacles are made that way purposely so that the Ground makes first contact on the way in and last on the way out. It looks to be about 1/8th of an inch longer.

I agree with your preference for the ground on the bottom (cosmetically) but not to the right with Horizontal because that would put the Hot prong on top. I would prefer it the other way.

Bill

If you step on the cord the hot will disengage first and that's why I prefer to the right. I guess you have to decide if a cord is more likely to get stepped on or something fall off the wall above the recept. Also if something falls off the wall what are the chances it will fall straight down the wall and land on the prong vs land on the cord and pull it out of the recept. Just a thought.

Steve,

I see there's 2 sides to that too. I see your point. I always thought about the plug getting somehow partially disengaged and exposing part of the top prong to contact.

Bill

I don't give any less merit to that idea than what I posted. Let the coin decide

I like the white on my right and the grounding prong up.

The major reason for this is when plugging in a cord below eye-level (the usual), I need to see all three prongs at once. If the ground is down, it is harder to see.

The next reason is gravity. Gravity will pull a loose plug downward. I would rather that a ground or neutral were exposed than a hot or hot and neutral. I've seen a lot of loose plugs. If the plug is properly designed with a slightly longer ground prong, then the ground prong won't lose contact before the hot does.

It seems that most manufacturers, especially of right angle plugs, but also of other appliances made to hang from the receptacle, are designing their products as if grounding prong down is the only way. Oddly enough, ground-prong up should make for a more esthetic right-angle plug.

Note to sparky66wv: I think that table lamps and night lights should have polarized plugs. If they don't, that is bad. But with a two-prong plug, up or down doesn't seem to matter.

Hot on the right is an anachronism.
For 120 V, neutral ("wide" prong) should be on the right.
Black goes on the left.
For 220 V red goes on the right.

It makes it all very easy to remember too.

I have the killer argument now.
Ground should go up. When it is down, receptacles looks like faces and that invites small children to play with them.

Grounds Up. But it's hard to convince customers of the benefit. They're used to seeing it 1 way ("You put them in upside down")

I am waiting to see an enumeration of the benefits or pros and cons.
What exactly do you say to your customers?

lately, i just ask em' how the'd like em'

I like the ground up for safety, but the customer wins because of the "Golden Rule".
He who has the Gold, makes the Rule.

I will relay a story about receptacles, and the direction they face. I was working in a building in the City of Houston as an apprentice, and the "building standards" required that all receptacles be placed in the "baseboards" horizontally (back before ADA). So, I was going to install a receptacle with the "grounded" conductor (neutral) in the up position. The journeyman that I was working with at the time stopped me, and had me install it with the hot in the up position. Naturally, I said, "Why?" He responded, "We install, and remove lots of plugs around here, and when I remove one from a "J" box, I want to be able to see the "hot" as it is coming out of the box. "Good point," I thought. He was looking out for his own safety, and the safety of the other electricians in the building. Was it bad for the customer? I would say, "Maybe, maybe not."

HMEL #688

I tell our customers that there's a greater likelihood of something falling across the energized prongs with the ground down. Here in So CA, we have quakes that move appliances, pull plugs out, knock things off walls, etc.(but things still fall down, not up)
Through this whole thread, the best argument for the grounds down has been the asthetic or smiling face, which is not too strong.
Don't get me wrong, I put 'em in how the customer wants, but unless there's a reason not to,they go in grd up. The customers rely on us to guide them through the electrical safety issues, and our personal opinions count for something, whether it impresses a CMP or not.

I feel that the best argument goes back to the devices designed for ground down recepts such as 90 degree angle appliance cords, wall warts, night lights, CO2 detectors, etc.

These things tend to fall out of the wall with ground up. My old boss insisted on ground up, but I got alot of his old customers when I became a contractor and most of those were very unhappy with it.

I'm all about pleasing my customers, because quite frankly, I like to eat.
(My old boss drove a Ford Fairmont... as recently as '98! I drive a 89 Nissan truck... the sparky's who could care less about code drive new Dodges... there's a pattern here...hmmm)


Which is exactly my point...


[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 04-25-2001).]

Let's beat this dead horse some more. I've got a GFI recp here that reads "test" & "reset" only with the ground down. I've got a surge suppression recp that has the writing so that it reads only with the ground up. If I install these with these operating instructions inverted, have I violated NEC section 110-3(b)???
PS I've also go some rt angle cordsets that are designed w/ the ground prong opposite the cord entry.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 04-27-2001).]

electure,
That is not a violation of 110-3(b). That section only requires complinace with instructions that are part of the listing and labeling, it does not require compliance with any other instructions provided by the manufacturer.
Don(resqcapt19)

How does one know the difference?

I thought that was a very good point myself... I 've noticed the same deal on leviton and eagle brands...

To continue striking the deceased equestrian...

You need to carry around copies of all of the NRTLs listing books.
Don(resqcapt19)

While your picking up those books, pick up a set of overload springs for your truck...you'll be needing them

I still believe that they should be UP when using metal covers!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 08-27-2002).]

I have worked on hospital jobs (horizontal receptacles - metal plates) where the specs required the neutral terminal to be up.

Ed

In Joe T's 01-17-2001 01:09 AM sooted-metal-plate image—that may have had nothing to do with the ground-pin position. It may have been an older cord cap with a simple push-on/often-loose/sometimes-missing fishpaper insulator over the live terminals. One or more of the cord’s ungrounded-conductor strands {supposedly under a binder-head screw} may have been frayed with a single loose copper strand waiting for the next metal-plate contact. That was once a very common “flash” problem before the NEC deadfront cord-cap mandate.

I STILL agree w/Joe that the grds ought to be up, metal plates or not. (BTW, he's got some pretty good pics of "blasted stainless plates")So do I. not posted.
It's kinda funny that all the hospitals require grd up. You might want to tell me why!
I'm just an old dummy,but I can still play.

A Southern CA Earthquake electrician
S

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 07-28-2002).]

FACT:

The lost 6/32 plate screw was the reason for the metal plate falling down and coming into contact with the blades. Your reminder of missing discs on a cord cap is well taken, but was not the reason for this situation.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 09-03-2002).]

Interesting to revisit this topic.

Is there any reason that the old 2-wire recepts. on K&T systems were wired with hot on the right, or did it just become an accepted practice by chance?

In Joes picture that cover is pretty well burnt. Did the breaker trip ? If something falls between them it seems logical that the breaker ought to have opened.
As far as a picuture frame causing that kind of damage thats gotta be a one in a million shot, also did the breaker trip in that sequence.
Mark

My reasoning for ground down is gravity which was stated earlier.If the recept. becomes worn the plug will eventually start to work its way out.This way the equipment ground will be the last to go.As for horizontally hot down for sure.
SCJohn

Gee Joe,

Look what you started with this one. (LOL)The code does not state any which way the ground opening should be. Some like the face and some like the ground up. A lot of plates now a day are plastic, so some of the problems will go away. Also and most importantly, the plug on the applience shouldn't have any strain on it. How many times have you seen where the ground plug is up and the cord has to bend up, before it can hang down?

Caper

This argument will go on forever because of the may situations we encounter with various equipment configurations.


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 08-08-2002).]

Caper:

You mean like this one?



This was used at an electric coffee pot for banquet service during one of my seminars somewhere in Ohio ....

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-28-2002).]

I was taught to install the duplex receptacles with the ground down (or to the right). The explanation I was given was that when using NM wire the bare ground would be at the bottom of the box and well away from the hot terminal.
I see a lot more broken receptacles (right below the ground) when they are installed with the ground down.

WNYJim:
Thats the first time I have ever heard that reason for putting them in the down position.
I personally dont see the big deal whether they be up or down, the pictures above are saying the breaker didnt trip and that I would consider a bigger problem.
I wonder how they put them in at St. John Fishers college ?? Isnt that near Rochester ?
Anyway welcome to the forum.

But when you see that stuff. it just makes you wanna SHOUT.

<Mark-

Personally I have seen more broken recepticles with the plastic surrounding the ground broken off when the ground is located on the bottom. The commercial duty outlets use a different grade of plastic and seem more durable.
The pix with the metal outlet plate covers are real eye openers! Thanks for the heads up!

On the possibility of a partially disengaged plug breaking the ground connection before hot/neytral in some orientations, I would have though that the design would make that impossible.

That certainly seems to be the case with the Hubbell recepts I've experimented with here.

Joe,

That is exactly what I mean. So "IS" it better to have the ground up or down? As long as the stress is off the cord, does it matter?

Caper

I work at a newly constructed hospital and all recepticals are ground up.However you can get into a problem when hospital equipment comes with 90 degee plugs.With the cord up the wall like this the staff who are can be in a real hurry will always gab the cord.HG grade recepticals and plugs are very thight and it's a common thing for a nurse to rip a ground up 90 degree receptical right out of the wall.Then theres calls for recpticals that have a ground prong busted off in them and the search for the equipment.One more thing is that the insulation will be pulled away where the cord enters the cap faster resulting in a shock.when you go into the hospital the heart monitor ect travels around the building with you and can get plugged in five times a day easy.

I was taught that the recepticle hot should face up when installing in a horizontal position. That way you can always tell where the hot is when removing it.

Joe,

What happened to the screw for that metal plate? (The picture probably came from your archives and you don't know) If it is common practice to not screw in a metal plate then the ground should diffently be in the up position.

Gibson:

The entire assembly was sent to me by one of my students. He said that the screw was actually missing, and the plate was positioned against the wall, being held in by a low voltage power supply used to supply some sort of equipment.

When the transformer was removed slowly by some unknown person, it caused the arcing.

I can tell you this, in one of my onsite classes one of the electricians showed me a box full of receptacles, similiar to those shown here and they were all with their plates and receptacles in a similiar condition.

I have many more pictures and they show the same type of condition.

You mean one of these type X-formers?

http://users.stargate.net/~vkkelly/up.jpg

http://users.stargate.net/~vkkelly/down.jpg


What's the advantage again?

I don't get it at all...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-31-2002).]

Sparky:

The handy box plate looks like the screw is secured so it will not fall out and away from the plate.

The pictures above are my reminder, and I believe that is is the best solution, if your want the U ground "UP" use a nonmetallic plate and screw.


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-31-2002).]

Hmm, I don't see how it would make much difference with a two-prong non-grounding plug.

As for the fixing screw becoming loose in the first place, maybe this would be a case for duplex receptacles to be designed so that the cover plate takes two screws like a switch or single recept.

Joe, Paul and Sparky make a good point. If it was a low voltage power supply like the one in your photo it wouldn't have made any difference which way the receptacle was installed if it was vertical. The same holds true for most office equipment like calculators that have a transformer type cap. 99% of the computers, monitors and printers I am seeing lately have a 90º cord cap at a 45º angle with the ground pin @ 6:00 and the cord @4:00 to enable several to be plugged into a surge power strip. Ground pin up receptacles would put the cord cap in a strain when plugged into a wall recept. I'll stick with ground pin down unless specifically requested to do otherwise.

Joe, the handy cover was the only metal cover I had this morning...

But yes, my point would be that the lack of ground pin would make the solution moot, (with all due respect)...

However, I agree that in the case of three prong plugs, ground up would give an additional measure of safety.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, just trying to bring to light why the NEC CMP's are reluctant to make a decision on this.

Thanks for posting my pics... Couldn't remember HTML this morning or something...

-Virgil

Sparky:

I get your point, and agree with you and should have realized that by now. That just goes to show us that we can learn someting new every day, especially in our business.

The code for the images when uploaded to this site, from your FTP ste is:

[img] image goes here, no spaces [/img]

In homes grounds down except for the switched recept to identify it as switched.

(A friend of mine used to identify them as smiling faces or frouning faces).

Here's a two wire receptacle I bought last year in the store across the street from where I live.

It was on the display board, and the store owner said it was hanging there for over 20 years!




[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 08-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 11-08-2002).]

Martin & Jones Hardware is a local store that has been in business since the late 1800's. They reportedly have a cowbell there that has bee there since then!

I've seen all sorts of treasures there, and I've bought some old 2-wire recepts there too, brand new, in the box, with the price on the box of ten somewhere around $2.00.

I think I'll go down during lunch next week and clean out some stuff they've got.

Who knows what I'll find!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-04-2002).]

OK, just in case--don't forget to fill us in on your finds, '66wv...

It appears that Leviton still makes a non-grounding outlet in their "combination line", #5222:




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-06-2002).]