I'm adding receptacle circuits to an older kitchen with ceramic tile on the walls above the countertop. The tiles measure 2"x5/8" and the grout is very thin, 1/16" or so.

I don't imagine that cutting an outline of a Carlon old work box with the tiles in place will be too successful. I'm thinking that what I will do is:
Mark an outline of a 1 gang owb on the wall.
Figure on removing all tiles that reside inside the outline. Even if a small portion of a tile is within the outline, the tile will come out. (So, even before the hole is cut in the plaster beneath the tile, a much larger "hole" is made in the tile pattern.)
Scratch out the grout between affected tiles with a broken hacksaw blade.
Work the tiles out.
Cut hole for owb, insert cable(s), set owb in wall, flush with tile.
Reassemble and set tiles, cutting as needed and grout.
Anchor and wire box.
Labor intensive but I think in the end the product will look good.
Whad'ya think?

Whoa there cowboy. You'll never get the tiles out without damaging at least some of them and the new grout will not match either.
Here is another way. Lay out your box locations. Look to avoid wall studs by checking for screw locations in the cabinets. If you are worried about other obstructions such as pipes or ductwork, poke a hole in the cabinet and feel around with a peice of fish tape. To cut the hole in the tile use a roto zip with a tile cut blade. This makes a nice neat hole and will not damage the tile.

Buy a Dremel tool with a ceramic blade, grind your hole like a dentist on your tooth. Ouch.

cut the tile with a roto zip, everyone is right unless you plan on re grouting the whole kitchen it will never match and you will either break a tile trying to get it off or tear up the backer boards. roto zip is cheap at the orange roof. well worth it

Quote:
"Whoa there cowboy. You'll never get the tiles out without damaging at least some of them and the new grout will not match either."
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We just settled with payment for kitchen re-tile $1,100, we installed one outlet, and there was one little hair line crack, they thanked us for doing such a nice job, paid on time, and we forgot about it, then we received a letter from their attorney, we destroyed their kitchen, so our attorney said it would be best to agree on making a settled payment, what we learned is don't put openings in tile.

A 4" grinder fitted with a diamond blade works wonders in tile.

Trying to pull the tiles out is a sure way to break them.

I think LK is trying to tell you something. If it were me, I'd listen

I think the customer will not pay $300 for 1 outlet.
I think you'l be out of business -=fast being penny-wise and dollar foolish.

Spend the $80 on the RotoZip and use the carbide blade and be done in 30 seconds.

I recomend the Roto Zip as well. I have cut plenty of old works in tile in baths and kitchens. It's very easy, just keep the vac running as it throws off some dust.
Make a note on your contract with the customer about possible cracks in the tile. Most will understand that cutting into an old wall anything is possible.

I wish they made a diamond bit for the roto-zip. Thier bits for tile burn real quick on certain types of tile, and are useless on stone. (Turns red, and its toast) Grinder works on all, and Roto-zip realized this and made convertable models Grinder/router. They make a smaller 3"? diamond grinder wheel special for it, but its really hard to find.

Back before the roto-zip, I would lay out an outline of the box. And use a 1/8 masonary bit, drill holes real close together, pray, and crack what was left between the holes.

And heres some personal experiance advise.... If at all possible, physically or visually check that there are no obstructions in the wall. Back when I did alot of this, I would refuse to do it (Cut tile or stone) unless I could cut a hole for a dental mirror above it, or the other side of the wall. That hole is an easy patch, compared to finding that there is a stud, backer, drain/vent. I think that "Stud-finders" in situations like this are un-reliable through metal or wood lathe, or tiles. Theres nothing like cutting the perfect hole for your box, then finding that the counter and splash were backed by a 2X that you now need to chisle out, that a stud sensor didn't see. (I treat base boards the same way)

I agree with BigB an angle grinder with dimond wheel is great for cut in boxes in all types of tile and the wheel lasts longer than the roto zip bit. I have both on my truck. Rod

Celtic,

"I think the customer will not pay $300 for 1 outlet."
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The price they get, around here, is close to, or more for the job described, i am in central New Jersey.

Outlet installation can range, from $180 to $350 in old work, the time to do the job will vary with job conditions.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 02-27-2005).]

Celtic,

"I think the customer will not pay $300 for 1 outlet."
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The price they get, around here, is close to, or more for the job described, i am in central New Jersey.

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LK,
I am in North Jersey...I doubt I could get 3 bills for 1 outlet/circuit.

I have a customer that wants 2 sconces(they supply fixture) installed in their dining room. The switch location is on an adjacent(perpendicular) wall..no access above or below locations, all walls/ceilings closed and painted. I'll be lucky if this guy pays 3 for all that work.

On the RotoZip tool...
I successfully burned out not 1 but 2 of the battery operated models, and over 10 bits cutting in about 10 boxes for cable/tele on wall(s) made with cementboard and sheetrock (about 1").
When I bought the electric model...10 hihats, 2 switch locations, 1 bit! (same job location)
I haven't seen the battery model for sale in some time now - maybe it had a manufac. defect?

I'll be lucky if this guy pays 3 for all that work.

Question is who dictates price- customer or contractor. You know what it should cost and what you have to charge. No such thing as "I'll be lucky if this guy pays...". He either pays or goes somewhere else. Playing lets make a deal is a quick way to go out of business.

-Hal

Been cutting these holes for over 30 years and I still use the carbide bit with a series of holes around the outline of the box. Then use an old screwdriver or chisel and tap the uncut tile between the holes, remove the tile, cut the wall with a keyhole saw and install the box. I also line my box up with the corner of a tile so I don't have to cut into a second tile. Never had one go bad yet (knock on wood). If the hole ends up a shy small your keyhole saw will scape it larger.
Ron

Ron,

Just as you stated, we were doing it the same way for many years, and without a problem, just got bit on a job for one scratch, he should let them know up front that damage may occur, and put it in writing.

I'll be lucky if this guy pays 3 for all that work.

Question is who dictates price- customer or contractor. You know what it should cost and what you have to charge. No such thing as "I'll be lucky if this guy pays...". He either pays or goes somewhere else. Playing lets make a deal is a quick way to go out of business.

-Hal

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Hal,
No arguement...maybe I should have said "...this guy will be lucky if I do the job for less than 3 bills pays 3 for all that work."

we installed one outlet, and there was one little hair line crack

I wouldn't refuse to do it, just make them sign a waiver for the risky stuff.

I would ask wouldn't your insurance cover this but for $1,100 probably not worth the trouble.

-Hal

Thanks for all the valuable advice. I have a roto-zip and never use it. I prefer a keyhole saw for drywall and a carbide bit I used on cement board did not last long at all.
I'll buy and try the tile-cut blade.
No problem getting paid.

The hardest part of tile work is putting the pilot hole in....Some tiles seem to have a particularily hard glaze....I bought a set of those arrow-shaped bits (for glass) and use them, starting with the smallest.
As for the Dremel/ rotozip, it is esential to have a flat/router base for the Dremel, and with either to make your cuts in several passes, not all at once.