I just had a customer ask about installing a recept. in the bathroom of an old house (1940s). It would be easy to come out of the light with the feed but I know it is required to put bathroom GFCIs on a dedicated 20a. circuit. They are now using a (non GFCI) recept. that is built-in to the old fixture. It would be a fair amount of work (and money) to run a circuit to the second floor. Any thoughts?

My thoughts might differ from others here. Since this is a new installation it would have to comply with current codes. If I were doing it it would be a new 20 amp circuit or nothing.

I would suggest asking the AHJ to see if they will allow this. I've been told that many AHJs are receptive to upgrade situations where a little money gets people into a safer condition (and closer to compliant) than they are in now, and where more money isn't available.

If it were a case of an existing wall outlet on an ungrounded 15 amp circuit, replacing the receptacle with a GFCI would be an improvement (as I understand it). IMHO, that's better than doing nothing at all. This situation is a little different because you'd have to tap the light circuit (which is already used for receptacle power purposes, anyway), put in a new box, etc. But in terms of the improved safety, it's the same.

I've seen a number of old houses around where the electrical is in terrible shape, but because it was compliant when installed, the AHJ has little power to force a change (that in many cases would do no more than put a family on the street, which aside from imminent danger situations would not be politically good). So it seems plausible to me than many AHJs would be glad to see an incremental improvement towards code compliant and improved safety where otherwise nothing could get done.

This is one of those situations where there needs to be an exception.

I see Scotts point but I agree with Pdh that a safety improvement is going in the right direction even if we are fudging the rules a little.

FWIW, I would do it.

Roger

I am with Scott. A new circuit is the right thing to do.

I would do it if the customer is not able to afford the correct method, not because they are cheap.

Scotts way is the only way you can do it. The liability of installing a circuit that is half right and could harm your customer will come back on you.

Rob

What is the reason behind the dedicated circuit rule for bathroom GFI? I understand it is code to have a dedicated circuit for the bath gfi, but is it "less safe" than non-dedicated? i also agree with scott, but question the motives of the code. is it for reasons other than safety?

Clydesdale
Have seen the equipment women use? Plus you can put all the baths on the same ckt.
Yikes!

It occurs to me that, depending on what kind of panel they have, you might be able to install a GFCI breaker on the circuit. Then the recept. on the light would be protected, without the legal issues that might arise from a non-compliant upgrade.

Sierra, according to the original post, this family is now using the receptacle in the light fixture, so the loads must not be a problem. With this in mind, let's imagine they will have children in this bathroom and they can't or won't spend the money on a new circuit.

Now, at some point you could have installed a not so code proper GFCI receptacle to take the place of this cheap non compliant receptacle but refused and a child was electrocuted, how would you feel?

I know that was not a fair question, but if you were in Cvelectrics position, some soul searching might be necessary.

Another FWIW, when I said I would do it, I surely wouldn't expect all others to jump on my wagon for obvious reasons.

Roger

Roger, you have a heartfelt point. But, if you choose to do the project the result could be the same. If choose not to do project you will still be in buisness the next day.
If someone got hurt on your work the guilt would be far greater than if they got hurt on an existing problem.

Not to sound cold but, I would run away from that job.

cvelectric did not state that the cust is dirt poor and can't afford to have the work done correctly. He did mention the plug in the light as a short-cut.

Rob

Sometimes pure theory and soapbox legalism need to take a back seat. Our inspectors look at it this way: 1) have we made anything (even the slightest bit) less safe? 2) have we made anything (even the slightest bit) more safe? The answers are 1) no. we have not put any more load on the exsisting circuit nor have we placed any part of the circuit in a position to become less safe. 2) yes, tremendously. We have not made the system any safer for the building or eqpt but we have put the person in a much safer position. Therefore, assuming (yeah we know ass out of u and me)the new recep is not in a location that can be reached somewhat easily (like from an unfinished basement below) they look at this the same as a replacement, not as a new installation.
Let's look at this another way. If that customer had called you to repair/replace the light socket in the fixture would you do it? If you do, you have knowingly reinstalled a non GFI protected outlet in their bathroom. So now the guy has the option of being in the dark, or having no recep (because you can't reinstall the fixture) or spending lots of money for us to chop and patch his house up to get a circuit there.
Just my 2 cents. That's how we look at it around here.

Great replies, thank you. This is just one of many dilemas that I think we all have at one time or another. This is really a great site to go where there are thoughtful people with experience in the field. I probably will insist they install a dedicated circuit for the GFCI but it is tempting to call the inspector and ask as Roger suggested. These people do have some money but I got the impression from the HO that they would not do it if it were a big job. They might just call someone who will do it and I lose them as a customer. So be it. In this buisiness I am always thinking about my exposure to liability. It does bother me that there seems to be so many unlicensed, uninsured people(that probably don't pay taxes) doing the work. They are carefree when it comes to things like this since there really seems to be no enforcement or penalties for it. Sorry about the rant.

Cv if they would rather lat a hack do it the wrong way that's their choice. I don't need customers like that. I don't care what the situation is I wouldn't do it. If it goes bad you are screwed. I think tapping a 55 year old circuit and putting in a nice new gfci gives the impression that you can use the receptacle for anything and everything. Where do you other guys draw the line? Kitchen receptacles? Just branch off the closest light?

Scott, what if this was in an area that was using an older code? Would the ink (or lack of ink) on the pages of the older code book make it a safer installation?

It would be the same, and in this case by allowing it under the older code it makes a safer bathroom. It is kind of sad that by progression we have eliminated a simple solution to make a home safer.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 02-18-2005).]

IMO safety from electrocution overrides safety from overload (which is protected also). The primary job is to replace the non-gfci outlet.

Dave

So just throw the code out the window? To me the Code is clear. This is a new installation, period. Therefore it must comply with the code in effect at the time of installation. What annoys me about this is that the people just don't want to do it if it is a big deal. If they have no regard for their own safety I say let em fry. By the way, if the inspector said "sure do it to hell with the code I am supposed to enforce" and something happens, do you think he is going to take the fall for you. I don't.

Right again Scott, the inspector has no liability to any project. Just because he doesn't see it doesen't mean its a leagal install. Even if he gave his blessing, its still not to code and the contractor is liable. He may be gone by the time something happens... then what?
There is no statute of limitation on code. Once you install your product is your liability forever.

Rob

If I were to touch it, I would go with the 20A ckt. and GFCI outlet. Safety is #1, or tell them to have a nice day.

...I'd have to go along with Scott,...or...only if the AHJ is willing to sign off on it,..steal the feed from an adjacent source, if running the line was cost prohibitive or next to impossible..but only if the AHJ okay's it,and signs off on it.
Russ

[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 02-19-2005).]

Scott and I live in MA we follow an amended NEC and we have 'Rules' placed ahead of the NEC.

In this case it is "Rule 3"


I would not consider breaking this rule while on the clock of my employer. If I ran my own business (like Scott) I would not break this rule. In my opinion it is not worth the risk to the business.

That is too bad for the reasons Roger pointed out.

As a favor for family or friends I would consider it after looking at the conditions. If it was 15 amp circuit in good condition with proper grounding means I would do it with out loosing any sleep.

If it was ratty K&T I would not.

We each have to draw the line where we can live with it.

Bob

Quote:
"If it was 15 amp circuit in good condition with proper grounding means I would do it with out loosing any sleep."

"If it was ratty K&T I would not."

___________________________________________

Good condition, is what you are looking for.
Thank you, Bob

It was pretty ratty rag wire Bx. The ground seemed okay(not sure it matters w/GFCI). Is there a good way to check for a good ground? Resistance to water pipe, back to panel with a wire connected to ground bar? The HO now wants to replace the bathroom light fixture but wants to "wait" on the recept. since they don't use it much. Probably will run an extension cord in there when they need it, ouch!

I hope they plug the extension cord into a GFCI receptacle.

I use a tester made by Ideal that measures ground resistance. It also measures voltage drop and other measurements. I think the model number is 61-156 or ST-1THD

The NFPA frowns on extensions cords. Those have so many hazards. But you know about that already. Still, there are such things as GFCI extension cords.

One risk you might encounter if you install a light fixture that does NOT have a receptacle is that you force the homeowner into using an extension cord (or so it may be argued against you in court). Unless you can find a light fixture that has a convenience outlet ... and with GFCI built in ... you might not want to replace it as that effectively removes something they already have, creating a greater hazard.

Here in NJ we have a "Rehab code" which would allow the installer to come off the existing 15 amp circuit. What is better? Using an extension cord from who knows where, or even the non GFI on the vanity light. (Because a new 20 amp circuit is cost prohibited.) Or installing a new 15 amp GFI off the lighting circuit? Just my 2 cents.

Harold that makes a lot of sense, we do not have section like that in MA.

So if I apply common sense I will be violating the code putting blood in the water for the sharks if you know what I mean.

It is a shame that I have to think this way, but I do not think commonsense stands up in court.

Bob

CVELECTRIC,
I could picture the BX style cable your talking about. You move the wires and the insulation starts to break. That itself is in need of repair. That was funny with the Extention cord in the Bathroom. Some home owners just don't know. It's up to us to educate them. If you try to fish and snake a feed off of existing, would it be easier to run a homerun?

Hey guys,
Let's make this discussion interesting. Suppose the panel is full, no available spaces at all. Now do we add the cost of a subpanel or a service change into the equation...? And just for kicks, lets say this panel is inside a finished wall...

This is turning into a big job so I guess now it would be ok to ignore the code and do what ever is easiest.

Bob,

How are your guys, that worked down here doing? If you see Andy and Gary, Tell them that I quit that job at Cedar Crest. Again I go with "Common Sense", I did things in that town that was common sense but my boss didn't like it. We would butt heads all the time. The Plumbing AHJ and I both quit but enough about that. As I said, in NJ there is a "Rehab" code which allows people (HO and EC) to get away with a lot of things in older buildings. There is some good and some bad things in that code as well. Under the situation where you would have to rip open walls in order to meet the NEC, or else put the new recptacle on an existing line, well I would go with the existing circuit. Just my 2 cents.

HLCbuild
Mow it down and build a real house! Its the only option.

Rob