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Posted By: rowdyrudy Custom Builder - 02/11/05 08:20 PM
Yesterday evening I had a visit from an area custom home builder, who built my home 11 years ago, and his EC. I did my own electrical. They are establishing standards for their construction and visited to view my set-up. All possible locations for TV to have two quad-shielded RG-6, one Cat-5, and two quad receptacle on separate dedicated circuit. Computer locale two RG-6, two Cat-5, and three quad receptacles each on separate dedicated circuits. RG and Cat to thermostat. RG and Cat to security system and intercom system. Dual RG to site security cameras. RG to site lighting controller. All RG-6 and Cat go to central location in basement on plywood mounting boards with all cables identified as to termination point. Spare cables and branch wire terminated in accessible attic spaces. The quad receptacles are a result of TV, DirecTV (or cable box), DVD, Stereo, etc, at TV locations. The quads at computer areas (3, mine, wife’s, and grandkids when they visit) handle Direcway, wireless, computer, two printers, scanner, external devices, lamp, etc.
Don and I both wonder how other custom builders do it.
Rowdy
Posted By: Joey D Re: Custom Builder - 02/11/05 09:31 PM
Sounds like your into overkill, not a bad thing in your own house but unless it's speced like that and you give a price for a job how you would do it you will be very high dolar wise.
If I have a say in it I do,
3 cat 5e to each computer
2 quad cable's and 1 cat 5e to a TV. I run all wiring back to a media center where routers and spliters are configured. You can set up a whole house where they run a common printer in the house if you like or you can play a DVD or movie from a computer on any TV in the house. Lots of options with the media cabinets exist.
Each location doesn't need a dedicated recpt but can't hurt. Most high end TV systems run a remote rack in a closet or something. All the equipment gives off heat and takes up space which most don't want in thier living rm or TV room. I have done systems where each speaker in the room required a 20 amp dedicated cir, acual draw was 12.5 amps. Ended up with 6 speaker cir, 2 rack cir. It's tough to set up the perfect house unless you know the system.
Posted By: hbiss Re: Custom Builder - 02/11/05 10:20 PM
Sounds like this should be moved to the VDV forum.

To say you are into overkill is an understatement. RG-6 quad shield and UTP CAT5 to thermostat, intercom, light controller and security system? Why and why quad shield?

Sorry, but I sure hope those guys understand that they will go broke if they follow your advice. Much of this is not needed to begin with.

-Hal
Posted By: Ron Re: Custom Builder - 02/11/05 10:47 PM
If your looking for standards, why recreate the wheel. ANSI, Telecommunications Industry Association and the Electronic Industries Alliance have a "Residential Telecommunications Cabling Standard" 570A.
It establishes 2 different grades of cabling, which are 2 levels of installation scope and quantities of locations within the home. As you might guess, grade 1 is minimum and grade 2 is most extensive.

[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 02-11-2005).]
Posted By: George Re: Custom Builder - 02/12/05 12:10 AM
A 30" LCD TV is only 180 watts. Fast plump computers with LCD monitors are under 500 watts.

Wireless does away with network cables.

While quad (or more) recepts appear to be useful, often times the appliance cords are too short and a power strip is a better solution.

Your plans are foolish.
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Custom Builder - 02/12/05 12:41 AM
There's not a whole lot of benefit to bringing multiple Cat5e data cables to one location. If the owner ends up with multiple pieces of equipment at a location, it's easy to use a $20 switch to support multiple data connections. Cat5e will support a full gigabit trunk connection, which should be plenty of bandwidth for pretty much any conceivable residential application. (Excluding those who decided to set up a web hosting company in their home, but that's a whole 'nother animal.) Multiple Cat5e cables might simplify things slightly by allowing all the switching to be done at one, central location, but not having multiple cables doesn't rob you of any capability that you would have had with multiple cables.
Posted By: rowdyrudy Re: Custom Builder - 02/12/05 10:40 AM
A full detailing of my system would require too much space and time. All cables are in use with the exception of a third RG in MBR. The way the system is configured, loss of any cable, interface, router, etc, does not result in the loss of any function. Entire system from security, thermostat settings, TIVO, telephones, to starting coffeepot is controlled from computer, including laptop carried in vehicle. Many services and components have been added over the past 11 years and I probably will add more as additional technology becomes available. At the present time I am checking out whole house satellite telephone systems.
BTW, Don has never had to bid on a project. All are negotiated. When he built for me it was cost plus fixed fee.

Rowdy
Posted By: hbiss Re: Custom Builder - 02/12/05 08:11 PM
Whatever floats your boat I suppose. If you keep up with trends you will see that the "smart house" concept never really took off so I wouldn't expect too many people to be interested in your version even if they were willing to pay the price.

Another point is that your design may make perfect sense to you but as professionals we have to realize that at some point we will be out of the picture and somebody else will have to figure out what we have done. If we reinvent the wheel nobody is going to want to service it which leads to angry customers and eventually the system being abandoned.

-Hal
Posted By: rowdyrudy Re: Custom Builder - 02/12/05 09:41 PM
Hal, I think you are partially correct in your observations. However I meet with a group and at the University regarding what used to be called "smart houses". Many persons my age (73) aren't much into modern technology as I am but the surprise is the extent folks are wiring their "tract houses". Even those in apartments are going wireless to a great extent. Try attending a class, or preferably a tech meeting, at a nearby University and I believe you will be pleasantly suprised by what the younger generation perceives in the future of home high tech.
Rowdy
Posted By: Tom H Re: Custom Builder - 02/12/05 11:45 PM
You need to meet your clients needs when it comes to data cabling. Wireless is not standardized yet and and IP [internet protocol] based products are soon to flood the market. Telephone, video, audio, security, power-over-ethernet devices all run on cat5/6. Lutron home controls can in a pinch use cat5. Crestron home controls thrive on cat5

Home audio systems use cat5, and lots of it.

You need to discuss the options and don't be afraid to call in an AV dealer for info and suggestions.

My basic spec style jobs get a cat5/rg6 to all bedrooms and living spaces, better homes get a bannana peel [2cat5/2rg6] to all plus some bonus areas. The more custom homes can rival high voltage wire in their quantities. It just comes down to what the customer wants.

Your method sounds good as it covers all bases, just make sure it is spelled out to who ever pays you, as a phone only opening could end up costing $300+ And power outlets can get crazy as well. My AV partners run all TV and audio equipment power back to a single source, then run it thru power quailty equipment. A bit overkill but it works for them.

[This message has been edited by Tom H (edited 02-12-2005).]
Posted By: e57 Re: Custom Builder - 02/13/05 02:38 AM
Future proof installation means an empty 1 1/2 EMT to all locations. Dont forget only 2 90's and 2' sweep radius.....

I think of the "whole lotta wire" sale on most jobs. It consists of (3)cat 5e, and 1 RG-6Q at all loc's, one each room. This Phone, Network, Spare and TV. I used to think it was total over-kill. But soon realized that if it's there, they look for reasons to use it. I have been thinking of adding another RG-6Q.

AV wiring is seperate.... Design as a system, when the owner sells, maybe they should be nice enough to sell the equipment with the house, as the wiring is specialized to the equipment other than general "Whole house audio", which should also be left behind in the same way you don't take your water heater....

Automation might as well be left behind too....

rowdyrudy, your system of wiring is more than most people would even think of, or use. But I wouldn't try to make it a standard... It might just be barely adequate for your ever- expanding needs. Most poeple are happy with one TV, and a handfull of phones, and point-to-point networking. A moderate amount of wire allows them to move them around a bit. Its a delicate balance.

Many people dont even own a computer, never-mind would they access one to start the coffee maker.
Posted By: rowdyrudy Re: Custom Builder - 02/13/05 04:25 PM
Basic RG-6 system for TV. All terminate at basement board.
1. 4 from DirecTV dish. (1-1/4 PVC UG).
2. 2 each routed to MBR, BR2, BR3, BR4, BR5, Library. (Required for HDTV).
3. 4 to Family Room. (Required for HDTV/TIVO and second TIVO).
4. 1 to Kitchen. (Not HDTV).
5. 1 to Garage. (Not HDTV).
6. 1 to Exercise Room. (Not HDTV).
7. 1 from OTA antenna in west attic. (Required for OTA HDTV).
Incoming to 4x8 powered multi-switch.
Load side feeds 2 4x8 powered multi’s and cascades to 1 more 4x8 multi.
Diplexers not used as unsuitable for optimum signal.
Splitters not used for same reason.
I think that my mixing the systems in my post possibly indicated a system that is complicated and expensive. It’s not difficult or cost prohibitive. I’ll try to fill in the other systems one by one .
Rowdy
Posted By: e57 Re: Custom Builder - 02/13/05 06:19 PM
Yeah, Rowdy

All that HDTV and TiVo is what I would call AV, and is far beyond standard. Specialized.

I have done some jobs where AV designers have called for Composite Video transfer to most rooms, beyond what you have, and likewise is far above what the "average homeowner" would want or use.
Posted By: Q3 Technologies Re: Custom Builder - 02/15/05 06:55 PM
New Member here...In the Custom A/V world but starting an electrical division soon.

My take is that the more wire for the future the better. We use mulitple banana peels or 4 ports as well call them to many rooms, 2 RG6 Quad and 2 Cat5e.

For Crestron Automation Cat5e or Crestron cable works wonders and give so much flexibility.

Wireless isn't quite there yet to do all that is need. Also basing your home off of a computer based system is risky because PC's crash.

I am curious to know how much you guys charge per drop of Cat5e and RG6 Quad?
Posted By: LK Re: Custom Builder - 02/15/05 11:44 PM
Technologies,

We have a plan for each job, and we work from a To from List, for pricing cable jobs, this allows us to max profits on every job, one rhing we have learned, from this type of work, is price is usually not the top item on a customers list, on time and neat installations are the top requirements.

Usually per drop pricing, is used in production wiring, not found too much in custom jobs.
Posted By: Q3 Technologies Re: Custom Builder - 02/21/05 08:19 PM
When we price out a system I agree that the job costs a certain amount listed by line item. At least that is the way we do it. I was just curious from being an electrical contractor as oppossed to an A/V contractor if our pricing was similar. I do know that as an electrical contractor you all get much better pricing on Cat5e and RG6 Quad because you all do that in most homes instead of having a dedicated low voltage contractor. At least that is what I have run into. Don't know if that helps clarify my question.
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