Has anyone noticed all the panel manufactureres offer a "homeowner pack" service panel that includes six or eight 20amp breakers and a couple 30A 2 pole? None of them come with any 15 amp breakers. They are sold mainly at home improvement centers. I just wonder if a lot of DIYs will use those 20 amp breakers on their #14AWG circuits.

The typical DIYer trying to change out a service will screw up well before they get to installing the branch breakers. Can you imagine one of them pulling a live meter, or cutting/rebugging at the weatherhead?

Yeah I have a hard time imagining an accountant or something doing this, but it would be interesting to see...

Lets count how many of these packs we can identify in some of the "violation forum" photos..

The worst HO job I've ever seen was with an addition to his house. He removed the OH lines and moved them to the other side of the house (live). Then he tied them to the fascia & taped them into his lines (no split bolts, just tape) and into the service distribution panel (no meter socket).

He didn't quite understand an electricians description of the connection, so he put one wire on the main & the other on the neutral bar. The support was still on the soffit. He threw the main & saw the insulation bubbling on the wire & shut it off. Everything in the house took 240, so they lost the refrigerator & some other things.

He called me in for the upgrade and still insisted on doing the interior wiring of the addition himself. He was lucky to be alive.

Dave

Around here the electrical supply houses have the same deal but you can pick your breakers. They offer it in SQ D QO, SQ D HO & Siemens. It each case we get the panel, 10 1 poles and 3 2 poles (max 50A on the 2 poles). Actually the pack is already assembled but they'll open the box and swap the breakers. It's a great deal.

I think these manufacturers crossed an ethical line when they chose to call these things "Homeowner Packs". Apparently they will do anything to sell their products and increase their profits even if it encourages people to kill themselves.

As far as I'm concerned they should be prohibited from selling panels, meter sockets, service cable and the like at those "home centers".

I don't care if the HO may be allowed to do their own work, if they can't get the materials they can't get into trouble.

-Hal

Don't get me wrong here, but if the box stores shouldn't sell panels, should Pep boys sell brakes to me if I am an electrician?
Should the box stores sell me lumber?
How bout plumbing supplies?

It's not the box stores problem, it is the guy who thinks he knows what he is doing that is at fault.

I say let him get hurt.......

It is a free country (at least the last time I looked) and the stores should be able to sell to anyone. The installer is what needs to be regulated. I agree with Dnkldorf.

Pierre

Do they sell explosives to the DIY's? How about freon, drugs, radioactive materials many chemicals and pesticides?

We didn't have this problem until the box stores made it easy for the audiences of Hometime and This Old House to get any materials they want. Before that about the only place was the supply house and DIY's didn't last long there.

About the same time the electrical contractors respectibility got cut down by at least a couple of notches because anybody can do electrical work now. If you don't believe me just go to some of those DIY electrical boards and see the disdain they have for EC's.

Yeah, it's a free country and that may mean that DIY's can do their own work but that also means that you are free to not sell to them if you choose. Unfortunately I believe that these places have put profits before public safety.

Gee, I would like to install a couple of split A/C systems in my house for this summer but nobody will sell them to me without a refrigeration license. Funny thing is nobody would be in danger of dying or really in danger of much of anything if I managed to get my hands on them, yet it seems like the environmentalists managed to keep these off the shelves of Home Depot without a problem.

Guess the ozone layer is more important than peoples lives.

-Hal

Not to minimize your rant, Hal, but I think HD is selling panels and breakers to ECs like me much more than homeowners.

Dave

I have never seen them called "Homeowner packs". The ones I see at the Depot are called "Valu Packs". Hal, you are in the wrong country buddy.

In MA the electrical supply houses will sell to anyone that will pay with cash or CC. Sometimes it is difficult for the DIY’er to get what they want because of the inexperienced way that ask for what they want.
Not like Grainger that only sells business to business.
It's funny that MA allows a HO to do their own electrical work and will also let them get a HO permit to do so, but won't allow them to do their own plumbing. It must be that they don't want the faulty wiring that they do to ignite the fumes form the faulty venting they might do. Only one hazard allowed per house...I guess.

Just yesterday a GC told me about a HD where the city made them stop selling indoor NM cable and BX. These wiering methods are not alloud any where around the area but home owners were installing it. Then the home owners started useing the UF cable to wire the inside of the house because the indoor cable was gone. So then city banned the sales of that too. After that there would be home owners at HD saying they need 12 90's 2 45's etc. pre bent 1/2" EMT.

Around here they managed to keep furnaces (except small garage) and central A/C units out of the home centers. I would say the HVAC people enjoy a better mark up.

It's not just the HO at the box store that is the problem. Even if the HO could not buy the materials at a box store or supply house, I'm sure any unlicenced handyman service cuold set up an account at a supply house.

What if you need a copy of a building permit stating electrical service work will be done before you can purchase service gear? Maybe in the permit have it say how many of what equipment will be used (like 1 meter, 2) 100 amp panels, 1 mast). Limit the purchase to those items.

The home centers might not want to take the time to do the paper work (some placesw only have 2 check out people per store) and stop selling the products. Or at least it would be sold from a counter person.

That's my idea. Just make it happen now.

Tom

Tom, the fact that romex is not allowed in that area is another ridiculous rule. Probably brought on by someone trying to keep people from doing electrical work.

Sometimes I wonder where some of you guys are coming from. Here we have something that is not only a ligitimate safety issue but it undermines our business, credibility and profits as EC's. Yet you just shrug your shoulders and say it's a free country.

The reason the plumbing trades and the HVAC trades have these restrictions in place is because they have strong trade group leadership that has the clout to make sure these issues are addressed and are favorable to them.

Maybe we need to take a lession here. If you don't like the fact that the big boxes sell electrical items to HO's why do you buy there? Patronize your local supply house, around here the prices are the same or better anyway and they have what you need.

If supply houses want to sell to non-profesionals at the same prices they give to you let them know that they won't have your business. If enough of us do this you will see how quickly the situation changes. My supply house has a big sign that says "Wholesale to the Trade Only!"

-Hal



[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 01-29-2005).]

Here in Canada, the problem of Home stores selling materials to unqualified people has been brought to the Electrical Saftey Authorities (ESA) attention time and again.

My understanding, and I felt the best compromise, was the ESA urged these outlets in the past to be sure that the homeowner gets a proper permit for the work they do. I do not see a problem with a homeowner doing their own electrical work if a proper permit and inspection is done.

If the homeowner decides to opt out of a permit/inspection, let him suffer the consequences. If in doubt, hire a pro.

Sounds simple to me, however, I do feel that these stores need to post bigger, and clearer signs regarding such and educate people further and better on the importance of obtaining a permit/inspection.

NM cable is not allowed in a large part of Northern Illinois (Chicagoland). We do work in Lake, McHenry, Dupage, Cook, Kane, and even Kendall Counties. Every municipality has there own code. In those Counties I would guess 95% of the municipalities are pipe only. How long it's been like that depends where you are. Depends when the town was started. I would say on average it's been pipe fo 50 years. A number of old single family homes were done in ridgid before EMT was used.

Maybe someone elce around could tell the history of pipe in this area. I wonder if Chicago was allways pipe.

If it keeps someone that can't bend pipe on a permit job from doing electrical work than I say GOOD.

Tom

Hal I don't disagree that there are real safety issues involved. But, where would YOU stop? Roofing shingles? Lumber? Auto parts? Sharp knives? McDonalds? Any of these things could cause you to be just as dead as an electrical screw up. While I dread working in a "handymans special", banning everything that is dangerous would go against everything I beleive in. (Which isn't much but a free society tops the list). Que the Star Spangled Banner......

Tom, do they still use hand augers to drill the holes?

We found that all the panels and breakers were 10 to 20% more at the home centers, no bargin, the local supply house always beats them on everything, but some wire, and some pvc.

hbiss,
I think I know where you are coming from. This is not to "bash" you in any way but listen.
I buy from the box stores for a couple different reasons. One being convenience. They are everywhere.
Prices, somethings are cheaper there.
Selection, ever since Siemens got the accounts, most of my suppliers dropped carrying ITE stuff. I am not going to change my whole business because my supply house changes vendors.

Now give this a thought. If like you want, the box stores stopped selling the stuff and they had to call you. For you that would be great, more business, better profits. You benifit. Now then, Pep boys won't sell you brake pads so you can change your brakes on the weekend. Only licensed shops can now do that. Now you have to pay someone to do that.
They benefit, you lose.
Walmart doesn't sell jack stands, oil, or oil filters. You can only get your oil changed at participating dealers. They benefit, you lose.
You now can't buy drugs at the drug store if you are not a pharmacist. No creams, no aspirin, no Benedryl for you or your kids colds. Pharamicist benifits, you lose.

Point of my scenerio here is there is always going to be give and take with everything. What right do I have to force you to take your car somewhere to change the oil? Who gave me the right to decide that.
On the other shoe, who gave you the right to tell Johnny Homeowner, if he wants to replace a receptacle, add a light, replace his own service cable, he can't buy the stuff on his own, and do his own work?

Some homeowners are quite bright, some are downright boneheads. Let the good Lord sort them out.It's not my job to decide who can do what and when....

Now having said that, the box stores do not bother me so much because they are in the Residential supply chain of things. Me, I am more Commercial and Light Industrial end of things. Maybe if there was a Industrial Depot on every corner selling VFD drives and PLC's , maybe I could join your complaint.....


Dnk........

Although I am not an EC, I do think it would be good for me to weigh in on this hot button issue. I hope this post all fits.

My job periodically involves working with ECs. What I do is design and/or manage computer/network data centers (from small to large). For this I, or my clients, must use licensed electricians to do electrical work. Still, I specify what work needs to be done, and to the extent I know all the theory and code rules, I can make those specifications correct the first time and not have work halt, and expenses needlessly go up, because there is an issue such as a code violation.

More of my work involves designs that I never physically go on site to see. But in a few cases I have, either as a consultant, or as an employee. And many times we already have the materials needed for the work in stock. In other cases, I can buy the materials at substantial discount, such as through surplus outlets So much of the work I order involves just labor (and their experience in doing it right) and our material. And with only one exception, I've never had any ECs bothered by not getting material markup. The ones that do good work get called again for future work. The one that refused to do the work because he couldn't sell us all the material at his markup never got called again, even for work we didn't have the materials for (which is more than half). I'd rather keep calling the same EC over again and have a good working relationship, so it needs to be one that can deal with the variety of conditions.

And I have occaisionally bought materials at the box stores. But I've also bought them at the local electrical supply, too. And I've bought them at surplus auctions (often a good source of partial spools of wire cheap), through online vendors, and even Ebay.

That said, I'll also tell you that I am currently designing a house I plan to build in the next several years. The design is nowhere near done with several plans still viable. The electrical wiring (and other things like plumbing, heating, cooling, etc) are being considered as part of the designs. There are issues like where the service entrance goes and how the kitchen is laid out. You may think it's silly to juggle the design to do things like minimize the total amount of wire being installed. But actually, doing design optimization is what I have the most fun with. Balancing all that while making it all safe, and code compliant, is the challenge. And I like a challenge. At least this one is all mine.

When the house finally gets built, it's not going to be a DIY work project; I'll be hiring an electrician/EC to do the work. But I will have done the design, and probably already have bought most of the material or at the very least have picked the exact models. Things like which circuit goes in which breaker slot, and what route the wire will run through the structure, will already be specified. The whole thing will be built on a computer in advance. Then I will watch the trades make it a reality.

I hope that gives a clear perspective of what kind of person I am.

I'm glad I don't live in Chicagoland (or other places like New York, New Jersey, California, and Massachusetts). I certainly don't like the idea that I'm told to do things in excess of what is generally considered safe, despite the fact that I probably will do a lot of that kind of thing, anyway. The issue is the freedom of choice. I want to be safe, but I think it should be my choice as to exactly how safe I will be, and how to make it fit into what I'm doing. And if you have ever been with me out on the shooting range, you'll know why they call me the "safety nazi".

I can understand the feeling that "someone ought to do something about it" when you see those handyman special wiring jobs. I've looked at a lot of the pictures Joe Tedesco has posted, and many would make me flee in terror. But I also feel that prohibiting the sale of the material is not going to stop DIYers from doing those things. It's just going to make the smarter DIYers mad because now we (I consider myself one) have to go patronize the flea markets where all that stuff will show up anyway (with questionable quality). And in some cases, work that really needs to be done (replacing an antique fuse box or removing dilapidated K&T) just won't get done.

The more the law prohibits something that people really want to do, the more you end up losing control over them, because they are going to do it anyway. Instead, the approach should be the opposite. Embrace the DIYers. Then offer (free, or not very costly) workshops to teach them how to do things right. Team up with other ECs in the area to do this so you don't have all the burden yourself. The results can be more DIYers that work safer, and more DIYers that better know their own limits can call you in to do what they (now know) they can't handle. Make sure they understand the local HO permit and inspection process. Make sure they know the insurance issues. Make sure they know how it impacts their home resale value to do it right.

My work is not unlike your own; it's just in a different area.

I'd sure benefit if the law required everyone to use the expertise of people like myself. Improperly installed computers and server abound on the internet. If the law required everyone to hire someone like myself to install and manage them, we'd certainly have far less spam and network attacks than we do now. Most people are still not even aware that their "always online" computers are being used by kids in Russia to launch huge attacks on major businesses like Amazon.

But, I would oppose such a law. It would be a case of work done the right way, for the wrong reason. And a few of you might well know how to install and run computers so they are not a hazard to the internet; you should be allowed to do so on your own.

A discussion so common in Reno that I can script it in advance goes like this:
HO: How much $$$ to replace my fusebox with breakers?
EC: $800+
HO: But I can get the panel & breakers for $200 at the box store!
EC: Sure, but there is lots of real, skilled work. It often takes two days. And you need many other parts as well.
HO: I still think you need to sharpen your pencil.
EC: Here's the ground rod. Here's the tool to drive it. You put it in, and I'll knock $100 off the price.
HO (an hour later): $800 sounds good to me. Oh- and how do I get the last five feet into the ground?

How about we market " The Home Lobotomy Kit " Just Kidding , What gets me going is when I am in one of those big box stores and hear what the sales people are telling the customers ! I feel part of the problem is the stores do not hire experienced people who know what is right or wrong. I have heard a clerk at HD tell a lady that she must use 10-2 romex because it is going to second floor of her house !
I am thinking about hanging out at these stores and giving out my card and telling the customers that when what they bought / tried doesn't work to call me.

Thought I'd seen this before... Try this:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000061.html

There's a link in there about Chicago and NM cable (verboten).

Some times I get to laugh at the DIY HO who installs local code forbidden items. Here it's MC and AC cable which can be installed with special permission only. ( BTW you will not get it 99.99% of the time). Just saw a house where the HO did his own wiring for a new house after taking one of those afternoon classes on how to install a switch and an outlet. He told the GC that he was not goimg to pay for those "G.D. expensive electricians" ran MC cable every where did not get permit and told electrical inspector that code was for electricians only and to get off his property and do not come back. Well now he cannot get a certifivcate of occupancy or the power hooked up. Now wants a price the install the electrical system to code but do not damage his paint of drywall.
I told him that when the drywall is removed and all his prior work is removed, I'll inspect then give him a price. Am the 4th EC to tell him that.
Also,do not know who, some one tipped off his insurance company can't close on the house because his insurance company dropped him and he still has to pay the bank.

Let fools and the DIYers do what they want they are going to any way. Our time will come and then let them pay and pay and pay.

nesparky, why do they have a problem there with MC and AC cable?

Hi,
I have seen "Value Packs" and "Contractor Packs" but have never seen any "Homeowner Packs".

-regards

Greg

nesparky ---

The federal courts look poorly upon licensed professionals not helping out people who put themselves in such a hole.

I agree that homeowner packs should not be sold. They never have the correct breakers.

George, please expound.

Yes George, I would like to hear this too.

I would like to hear how federal courts would even have anything to do with us unless we cheated the IRS.

-Hal

Sorry I should not have called them homeowner packs, that was just what I was calling them for lack of the actual name. I see they are called valu packs and contractor packs.

Hi,
Hey BigB, I knew what you were talking about and was just making sure what they were called since I had never seen any called "homeowner packs". I would not be surprised if there are actually "Homeowner Packs" out there somewhere!

I have seen "Apartment Packs" as well as "Contractor or Valu Packs".

They throw in sets of the most common breakers but usually just a handfull.

I have never done the math to see if they are really a bargain or not.

Thanks for the info.

regards

Greg

Sorry I should not have called them homeowner packs, that was just what I was calling them for lack of the actual name.

Geeze, thanks a lot. I got my blood pressure up for nothing!

-Hal

I have the perfect bumper sticker on my truck

Wiring is no hobby hire an electrician

See guy's this is where we can help the world as wiring gods :-)
we are here to help those when they fail
Just one point on E.C. w/ a lic.
just because the owner of the firm has one
does'nt mean the rest of the crew has one here in NY.
I can remember days when I made mistakes that the inspecter said hey dummie
Or have you ever been back to a house and said dam who wired that mess, and later that day
It hits you wow I did this when I was young and dumb

Solarpowered
The local codes restricting MC and AC came into effect because of problems and the inspectors choice to try and solve them.
George
Any one who thinks I am going to dig them out of a hole for free can guess again. This clown like all too many others thought he could do electrical work because " It is not hard and you electricians charge too much."

rhiphi -
where did you get the bumper sticker ?

hbiss ---

Federal courts are the choice of venue for my lawyer. The situation goes along the line of ...

A homeowner does electrical work, the AHJ refuses to inspect unless all the work is removed and installed by a licensed professional, and no licensed professional willing to go against the inspector.

Lawyer looks at the situation and realizes that he can recover his fees by going to federal court, and in his brief argues 1) work is inspected so there is no public safety issue that requires a licensed professional, 2) requiring the existing work to be removed is unreasonable, 3) no licensed professional is willing to do the work.

At this point a wise AHJ issues a permit to the homeowner, offers to pay legal fees and a lot of money to keep the whole thing quite.

This has happend in your world? How many times has your lawyer gone to federal court for you?
I must say, I have never heard of such a scenario, then again I am not a big city boy.

You must do some business to have a lawyer of such stature.

I didn't think you could even file such an action in federal court and if you could they would want to waste their time on it. Seems to me that's what local and state courts are for.

I'll consult with my attorney and see what he says.

Oh, by the way, anybody see any other problems with this guy's story? I see lots but then I don't spin things like a laywer.

-Hal

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 02-04-2005).]

I don't understand the idea of a federal law suit for an EC turning down work? Or a city in federal cort for not aproving a homeowner job?

If the HO dosen't pay for an EC I can't imagine him hiring an attorny. Sounds like another topic.

Tom

If the HO dosen't pay for an EC I can't imagine him hiring an attorny. Sounds like another topic.

I did talk about the "disdain" some people have for EC's above and I believe some will go to any length and cost to get their way.

About the same time the electrical contractors respectibility got cut down by at least a couple of notches because anybody can do electrical work now. If you don't believe me just go to some of those DIY electrical boards and see the disdain they have for EC's.

As for where George is coming from, see what he had to say in this thread- https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001052.html

-Hal

I just want to know if it was an equal protection or property rights case...

Imagine if tomorrow all the AFCI makers ended production for some rational reason. What would happen? You have to follow the law, but the law can't be followed because no one makes the part. Now suspose your AHJ demanded you follow the code. What would you do?

In this case the contractors all refused the work. Within their rights, but if the city requires licensed contractors be used to do some work, and then they refuse or don't exist... Yeah, he had a winner.

bumper sticker from one of our trade rags
I think it was from( electrical contractor)

George, an EC's license is NOT a hypocratic oath! (To heal the sick and lame wiring) It's a qualification to do business as an Electrician.

And all of the Building Dept's that are forced to allow unqualified persons to work on thier own homes have an option out of it. San Francisco's Permit Counter (who I believe have been taken to court on the issue and won.) will have an Inspector come out to question HO's on what they want to do, and grill them on how they are going to do it. Some simple questions about basic wiring, and safety revolving around the scope of work, and they get a permit, and later an inspection too. Occasionally, I get to hear one turned down, especially for service changes. And PG&E wont connect or meter anything without a green tag from the City.

While standing at a permit counter one day, I got to listen to a HO get refused a permit for a service change, a conversation that got pretty heated and ended like this. "We (Inspectors) are out there, NOT to make sure your house is safe, we are there to make sure your neighbors house is safe from you. The fire in your house can take out a City block."

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 02-06-2005).]

In this case the contractors all refused the work. Within their rights, but if the city requires licensed contractors be used to do some work, and then they refuse or don't exist... Yeah, he had a winner.

Well, that's not exactly correct now is it.

HO knew full well that he was not permitted to do the work himself-

Quote: I did the wiring for my new house without either a permit (the code office would not give them to unlicensed people)

I'm sure at that point he could have had his pick of contractors but the HO's intent was never to have a contractor do the work to begin with. No contractor ever refused.

Knowing full well that he could not do the work himself, he thumbed his nose at the law and went ahead and did it anyway.

Now, the house is finished and the HO wants a C of O.

So:

the AHJ refuses to inspect unless all the work is removed and installed by a licensed professional, and no licensed professional willing to go against the inspector.

I think it's a bit erroneous to say that "no licensed professional [is] willing to go against the inspector". More accurately, no licensed professional wanted the liability for signing off on work like this.

As for [the] work is inspected so there is no public safety issue that requires a licensed professional that doesn't hold water either.

Most importantly, the work can't be inspected fully as would normaly occur because the walls are closed up.

Further, inspection never guarantees that the work is safe, only that as far as the inspector can determine the installation meets the NEC and other applicable codes. There is a certain amount of trust given the EC by the inspector. Being a licensed professional means that you will do your best to both know the code and apply it. An inspector can't see everything and by being a professional it is given that you have the training and experience to do the job correctly. This basic principle doesn't apply with a HO doing the work.

requiring the existing work to be removed is unreasonable

Well, maybe but I don't consider it unreasonable to require all walls and ceilings to be removed to allow inspection. At that point I can't see not being able to find an EC to take whatever steps are necessary to insure code compliance and pass inspection.

At this point a wise AHJ issues a permit to the homeowner, offers to pay legal fees and a lot of money to keep the whole thing quite.

An I've got a bridge I want to sell you!

-Hal

A lot of my work begins with removing the work of a homeowner or handyman. It's usually very profitable, I can't imagine turning it down.

Dave

Yes, and that's my point. I don't know if some or all of this story is BS but if true this guy's hands are not exactly clean. He willfully ignored the law and deserved everything he got. I can't see any court siding with him.

Kind of like a 14 year old kid in court for driving without a license. If the kid had George's attorney he would argue that his client was well aware that you needed a license but nobody would give him one so he was justified in driving. I doubt that any court would then give him a license, pay his attorneys costs and award him damages to boot.

-Hal