ECN Forum
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Qualifications? - 10/06/01 12:26 AM
Are electricians required to be licensed in the State of Pennsysvania? I was told that there are a few cities in Pennsylvaiia, like Philly that have licensing requirements. Are there other cities or can anyone do electrical work?

Does any one know how to search the records for those who have been caught without electrical permits on jobs?



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-06-2001).]
Posted By: electure Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 01:31 AM
Yes, I know how to check.
I checked something quite similar to what you describe a few months ago.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 01:37 AM
PA has no state licensing. Phila. has a 4 hour NEC-based exam with some theory. The test was administered (in 1990) by the National Assessment Institute, which, for some reason, I believe is now Experior( I could be wrong on that). The suburbs have, for the most part, no testing. That's right, pay the fee, pencil-whip the form, and you, joe-shmoe, are a licensed Electrical Contractor.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 01:38 AM
Joe,

Yes, Ive seen the Mass site that you talk about, We (ECN ) are even linked there (under Links).
A great resource for your state's residents.

>> visit site
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 01:43 AM
Redsy,

Is it required to file at all?
Do they have Proof of Insurance requirements?
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 02:17 AM
Bill:

Thanks for the direct link!

Here is a story I found there that should put a scare in anyone who is not properly licensed, qualified, or without a permit!

http://www.state.ma.us/reg/Consumer/press2001/el082001.htm

Redsy:

Thanks for that information!
Posted By: Frank Cinker Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 10:33 AM
Joe,

Pittsburgh Pennslyvania has licensing requirements.

Frank
Posted By: sparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 10:40 AM
Some good points here; http://www.iaei.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=nec&action=display&num=994556892

We are aware of the overall problem , so let me throw this out here....what would you consider a solution??
[Linked Image]
Posted By: bordew Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 01:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Joe Tedesco:
1. What Qualifies a Repairman in the US?

2. What Qualifies a Maintenance Man in the US?

3. What Qualifies an Electrician in the US?

Are electricians required to be licensed in the State of Pennsysvania? I was told that there are a few cities in Pennsylvaiia, like Philly that have licensing requirements. Are there other cities or can anyone do electrical work?

Does any one know how to search the records for those who have been caught without electrical permits on jobs?

Here in Massachusetts it is easy to find out!

Shame on you .........!!!!

PS: Orange is a color required for one of the phases of an Isolated Power System!

Ohio has been certifying electricians, once you get your State Certificate, you were allowed to work in the state as an electrician. This was suppose to take care of the ' illegal ' problem. But who was to enforce the law the Inspectors, that was highly unlikely, especially in my county, we have 3 licensed Inspectors and they are generally busier than a ' One-Armed paper hanger, so when are they supposed to be checking for Illegals. All the illegal needed was to have the home-owner pull the permit and as long as that person is the legitamate owner he/she can pull the permit.I have talked to the inspectors and they tell me that when an 80 year old woman comes in to pull a permit for a Service-Revamp, they know for sure that some illegal is going to be doing the work, so what can they do, reapportion their time to be out hunting down Illegals ? We as legal contractors are supposed to report any illegals, but here is the catch 22, the inspector has to catch them in the act of doing the service, once it is done and the home-owner calls for inspection, all the inspector can do at this point is ' gig ' the job, but it had better be a ligitimate ' gig', otherwise they are lible.
Anyways recently the State of Ohio has passed a new law that anyone that was State certified after September 21, 2001, that certificate will automatically become a State License, and after all this time for people to become state ccertified, the illegals are still given another chance to be grandfathered in to the state licensing program as they were 8 years ago to become state certified.
Now with the new State License, whereas before, with only a state ccertificate, we had to get a license in any county that we wanted to work, plus bonding and insurance, or any City as defined as a City, townships are governed by the county.
To obtain a ccertificate or now Liccense in the state of Ohio, you must pass a rigorous 8 hour test, on the Code, Ohsa, business, and electrical math. I suppose it could be tougher but the repeat rate is very high meaning that it has achieved a purpose, but regardless the illegals are still out there. I have found that 'laid-off' Ohio Edison lineman are notorious for selling their services as legitimate Electrical Contractors, but with little enforcement, or a law with no teeth it will be something we will have to put up with until someone builds a better mouse trap.
as defined as such.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 03:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Addiss:
Redsy,

Is it required to file at all?
Do they have Proof of Insurance requirements?

Yes, a certificate of insurance is required. so, after the fire, if anyone survives, they can collect.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 04:17 PM
bordew,

A county by me has a competency exam for consumers filing as doing their own work. Perhaps something as simple as that (and a copy being sent to their ins. co.) would help cut down on the illegal work.

Question: does anyone know if Insurance companies view situations (who did the work) any differently with regards to rates paid or paying out claims? If they don't, maybe that's part of the problem too.

Bill
Posted By: Redsy Re: Qualifications? - 10/06/01 10:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Frank Cinker:
Joe,

Pittsburgh Pennslyvania has licensing requirements.

Frank

Frank,
What does Pittsburgh require.
Some of the local towns are beginning to have testing around here(Philly), and some have NO licensing at all. What about suburban Pitt?


[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 10-06-2001).]
Posted By: bordew Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 12:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Addiss:
bordew,

A county by me has a competency exam for consumers filing as doing their own work. Perhaps something as simple as that (and a copy being sent to their ins. co.) would help cut down on the illegal work.

Question: does anyone know if Insurance companies view situations (who did the work) any differently with regards to rates paid or paying out claims? If they don't, maybe that's part of the problem too.

Bill

The problem as I see it is that the inspector has to catch the guy and pursue prosecution, leastwise, in my county. Its not fair to the guy who plays by the rules, pays all the insurance, bonds, licenses, certificates,and then the customer says, well your to expensive, and John Fosdick Electric who is not licensed, can do the job for a buck and a half less, but John doesnt have to have a Million dollars worth of insurance either, this was required this year. In my area, you can always tell when an illegal does a 100 amp service, they use split-bolts to make their hot-taps, and of course there is never an inspection sticker on it and the split-bolts stay, Ohio EDison uses crimp connectors in this area after the job is called in.
But sometimes it comes back to bite them in the butt, the illegal uses copper service conductors and splice to the tri-plex, which is aluminum, I got a service call on one of these, one leg was missing to the house checked everything and got to the meter, had to call OE and let them know that I was cutting their seal, and had only 120 at the meter base. got out the ladder, climbed up and opened the taps and you wouldnt believe the corrosion on those bugs, so sometimes we get even but not often.
Posted By: Nick Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 03:05 AM
California passed state licencing requirements a few years ago and has yet to implement them. The word I am getting is the ABC has it tied up in litigation. The way it is to be enforced is by the inspectors. Motivation? Revenue from the fines. I feel it will be as bordew has described. Inspectors will not have time to play policeman and the abuse will be almost as bad as the prevailing wage abuse. [Linked Image]
Posted By: nesparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 05:30 AM
Ne. already has a state license program. The state electrical act provides for both criminal and adminastrative punishments for working without a license, not getting permits,etc.
Maybe when the DAs get off thier rear ends and actually get convictions joe jerkoff the fly by nite electrician will become a rarer breed. Untill then we still see the crappy work. Have yet to see any action by DAs or Judges.
Posted By: Frank Cinker Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 10:26 AM
Redsy,

To answer your question, Pittsburgh requires one to pass a written examination. Before you can sit for the examination proof of two years of Technicnal School must be presented. A legal document showing that you worked under a Registered Electrical Contractor must also be presented before you can sit for exam. You have to score a minimum of 75% on examination before a license is issued.

Frank
Posted By: electure Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 01:05 PM
On the flip side of the CA situation, I'm under the impression that the IBEW is holding up the licensing procedure.
It seems that they don't want the powers that be to accept any type of education except for their own.

I'd hate to think that after 32 years in this trade, I'm not qualified to put in a light switch. [Linked Image]
(I'm not anti-union, just non-union)
Posted By: bordew Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 01:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by electure:
On the flip side of the CA situation, I'm under the impression that the IBEW is holding up the licensing procedure.
It seems that they don't want the powers that be to accept any type of education except for their own.

I'd hate to think that after 32 years in this trade, I'm not qualified to put in a light switch. [Linked Image]
(I'm not anti-union, just non-union)

There point is this, they believe that anyone can pass a written test, in fact there are cclasses out there now that do nothing but go over old state tests, just to help people pass the state test, they are a two day seminar, and alot of guys are taking them just to pass the test, it is rigourous, but with proper study can be passed. So someone without a lick of training, can become a State Certified Electrical Contractor, after they pass the test, then it is up to the inspectors to teach these people in proper technique, as if the inspectors dont have enough to do, and I have seen this happen, this is the Unions main concern, Residential is not as much of concern as Commercial and Industrial.. As an example, I looked at a job and it was an old 60 amp service, with a 100 amp disconnect inside the building, but instead of fuses in the disconnect there were, two pieces of No.10 awg cut to length and fitted into the fuse clips. From the disco. to the panel a 3 conductor was run to an old-used FPE panel, the disco was not grounded to the water line and there were no ground rods. The job had to be done over and the customer had to pay twice. This set-up would have been Nirvana to a DIYer, but it was done by a State certified contractor. The State controlling every aspect of our lives is not a panecea, to safty and good practice.
Posted By: bordew Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 02:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nick:
California passed state licencing requirements a few years ago and has yet to implement them. The word I am getting is the ABC has it tied up in litigation. The way it is to be enforced is by the inspectors. Motivation? Revenue from the fines. I feel it will be as bordew has described. Inspectors will not have time to play policeman and the abuse will be almost as bad as the prevailing wage abuse. [Linked Image]

I am not trying to be a naysayer, but I have only seen one instance where someone has actually gotten fined.
This was a case, where a young couple bought the plans for a new home, and wound up hiring a contractor from pennsylvannia. That was mistake no. 1, Mistake no.2 was she was told to pull all the permits. She had to sign a document that she was doing all the work. the house got built, and approaved, but when the Electrical Inspector went out, and when he was done he had 2 and 1/2 pages of violations, it took about that long to correct the violations. In our county, Trumbull, there is a fine and 6 monthes in jail for this, she got fined 500.00 for her effort, the GC got paid and she had two electrical construction bills to pay, the other elecctrical contractor, who knows he is still working going along and singing his song, first they didnt know our local codes, and following the NEC for the rest of the wiring must have been a new idea for this group.
I am not against State Licensing, but there has to be a window in which to work otherwise the system is defeated before we start. One Contractor I know still has and uses a '90 Code Book. Well what about all the changes, well he says, I learn them as I go along. So as to date hes behing by 4 cycles. So go figure.
Posted By: Frank Cinker Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 02:19 PM
The Master Electrician written examination I took was very difficult. I struggled with it. It consisted of much theory, calculations and National Electrical Code questions. There were even some basic "business" questions. I hope I never have to take an exam like that one again. I don't think I would pass. Field experience helped me. I couldn't imagine a person without field experience taking the exam well. Let's not minimize the importance and significance of a comprehensive written examination.
Posted By: Fred Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 04:17 PM
There is no state license in Indiana for an electrician. In my county we have one large town which is the county seat. This town has a building commissioner with an advisory board. The building commissioner's office is responsible for issuing permits and licenses. There are 2 types of electrical licenses. One is limited to residential work only and is issued upon passing a 100 question exam with a score of 80 or better. Anyone can take this exam. If you pass the exam you must provide proof of liability insurance before they issue the license. The second type of license is a Master Electrician license. In order to obtain this one you have to pass the Block & Associates Master Electrician Exam with a score greater than 80%. You cannot sit for the exam unless you can show proof of 5 years experience in the trade. The Master license allows the holder to do residential, commercial, industrial, institutional and agricultural electrical construction. You also have to provide proof of liability insurance. The county building commissioner's office recognizes the city license. Most adjoining counties reciprocate the Master's license because their standard is the Block test as well. The county offered an OSHA Safety 2 day course this summer for the construction industry. It covered tools & material handling equipment and the basic hazzards of trades involved. It was sponsered by the sherriffs dept. and cost only $50.00. It was well worth it and should probably be a licensing requirement in the future.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 04:20 PM
Question,

Did anyone have a practical (hands on) examination besides the written one? Sorry, if someone mentioned that already I didn't see it.

Bill
Posted By: Nick Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 06:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by electure:
On the flip side of the CA situation, I'm under the impression that the IBEW is holding up the licensing procedure.
It seems that they don't want the powers that be to accept any type of education except for their own.

I'll do some checking this coming week. It's been a long time since I inquired as to what is happening. I find it hard to believe that the IBEW is holding it up as they were the biggest driving force in getting it passed. It shouldn't matter where you get your education as long as you know what your doing and have the ability to pass the test. After all this is now a State requirement, not a union non-union issue. [Linked Image]
Posted By: electure Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 09:23 PM
Bordew,
The CA licensing requirement we are talking about is not the CA State Contractor's exam.

There is a law on the books that will require all electricians in CA to be certified. It just hasn't been implemented yet, as the fine tuning and politics involved aren't quite complete.
Posted By: sparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/07/01 09:57 PM
everyone's spittin' credentials , qualifications, etc here...same ol'stuff eh?

so allow me to pose perspective....

Some people have absolutley no qualifications, credentials or licenses to do thier jobs. The never had to pass an exam,SAT or test. Never had to fill out any sort of form , write any sort of resume', or take any piss test. As a matter of fact, they don't have to answer to anybody imparticular in thier jobs, or serve any one person's request. Yet these individuals are responsible for our saftey, finacial well being, as well as all aspects of our business life, and yes, that includes the issue at hand here.....figure it yet????.....well..........they are our political leaders
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Redsy Re: Qualifications? - 10/08/01 01:45 AM
Guys,
Let's refrain from propaganda on this site. It only serves to undermine our purpose, which is to become better electricians. I know some people with apprenticeships and experience under their belt who don't give a rat's ass about quality or safety, and I know some who do. It isn't about ABC or IBEW, it's about the individual.
Posted By: sparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/08/01 11:19 AM
Redsy,
while i do agree with individual growth, the powers that be do not. Since art 100 has had this 'qualified' definition anyone connected with any sort of safety orginization has been trashin' our trade.
The Q' has been fairly repetitive.
It would seem that, with all the electrical orginizations we have, none are willing to set a benchmark for us here, except for OSHA through this backdoor definition. I tend to disagree with this as well as the insinuations and examples set forth as propaganda to this end
[Linked Image]
Posted By: therain4 Re: Qualifications? - 10/08/01 04:34 PM
Joe House bill No, 245 is currently before the Pennsylvania General Assembly the word at our local I.A.E.I. meetings is that it will pass but when is anybodys guess.I recently took a six hour master electrician test given by Experior for the city of Scranton and passed and you must show insurance certification to pull a permit.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Qualifications? - 10/09/01 01:06 AM
therain,
What is the content of the bill you cite? Statewide Licensing, I presume?
Posted By: electure Re: Qualifications? - 10/09/01 01:11 AM
No more sunglasses. It's cooling down here.
I don't express my "far right" political views intentionally on the BB.
I would just like CA to give a &^%$ test, and get rid of the 2 yr. experience forepersons that are so prevalent in the trade. Test us for our competence, if we don't cut the mustard, then don't let us pose as electricians.
Those that pretend to be electricians are blackening the eye of us that have tried to do a good, safe, and compliant job all this time.
Peoples lives depend on our work.
Posted By: therain4 Re: Qualifications? - 10/09/01 08:58 AM
Redsy yes the bill is about state licensing you can read it on the web at the Pa general assembly site it's HB245
Posted By: sparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/09/01 09:51 AM
The NAI ( national assessment institute) proctors J & M electrical tests for 1/2 dozen states on the east coast. Imagine if it were the same nationally, we could feed the fam anywhere.
Posted By: nesparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/10/01 01:21 PM
Bill
I have personally taken and passed two test that had a practical part of the tests. State of Wyoming and the old New Mexico both required a test taker to bend conduit wire ud a transformer, wire up a door bell circuit from two different points, wire up a motor contactor control, and 3 way and 4 way switches in a lighting circuit.
No other state or the experior test had anthing but a written exam in my experience.
I have master and or journeyman license in Nebraska, Council Bluffs Ia. and South Dakota active. I have had licenses in Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado, and mississippi,- since let those lapse because I do not work there anymore.
For all of those licenses and tests I had to show a least 4 years experience before I could take the test. Those Licenses show that I can pass code tests. They show that I am supposed to correctly know what I am doing. The do not guarentee that any work done will be 100% correct. Only I can do that. I have known some who have also passed these tests been licensed and donot give a damn. Thier work speaks for it self.
Most of the electricians who go to the trouble of getting licensed and staying current do good work.
Posted By: sparky Re: Qualifications? - 10/10/01 09:15 PM
nesparky;
i would be 'pro-practical' testing , at least in the respect of some pipework i've seen [Linked Image]

bring it on!
Posted By: ElectricAL Re: Qualifications? - 10/12/01 03:54 PM
NeSparky,

I totally agree that the quality of the work is directly tied to the integrity of the individual responsible for doing the work.

Minnesota has a "State Board of Electricity" that tests and keeps after licensing, bonding and insurance. By State law, no additional licenses, bond or insurance are allowed at the local level (city, county, municipality). Trade license (journeyman & master) renew every two years and contractor license renew on alternate years. The contractor license is simply bought but proof of a master's license tied to that contractor must be supplied each renewal.

Journeyman and master must take 16 hours of continuing education from a State Board of Electricity certified educator in order to renew every two years. A minimum of 12 of the 16 hours must be on the NEC each renewal.

Inspection is performed by State inspectors in areas (mostly rural) that do not provide local inspectors (mostly cities).

State law requires signage on the work vehicle, and you can't park at the job in a manner that hides the truck.

Homeowners of single family dwellings are allowed to pull their own permits with no proof of ability, however the inspector, after seeing the work can tell them to get a pro if it seems they don't have a clue, which means another permit that is from an outfit on the list of "the approved" at the State Board of Elec.

I've seen handyman services that started with a list of abilities printed on the side of their truck where the list developes blank spaces as they get nailed for advertising plumbing, electrical, etc.

The State Board of E. includes in their newsletters the names, addresses, charges and judgements of those nailed since the last issue.

With all of this buearacracy, which I think does a darn good job of leveling the playing field and simplifies my day to day going from area to area, there is still a healthy supply of crappy work that I get to fix. I think of it as job security.

Al
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Qualifications? - 10/12/01 07:15 PM
NeSparky,

Thanks for responding to my question on the practical. I didn't know how common it is to have a practical examination, because some areas only have a written exam and some, it seems, have nothing at all. Although it's not necessarily a true test of ones' knowledge, or ability I think that testing

does help to weed out some of the worst cases.

ElectricAl,
Welcome aboard!, It sounds like Minnesota is doing what it can. It's refreshing to hear that someone is making a positive comment on their situation as an Electrical Contractor!


Bill
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