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[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 02-08-2003).]

Oh, well. Some people never learn.
The misinformation just goes on and on...

The use of a water pipe as a grounding electrode was outlawed by the IEE here as far back as the 1966 edition due to the increasing use of plastic pipes and couplings. Even the 1955 notes state that caution should be used and to check.

Yes, but my point is that the current needs to get to the EGC, into the service panel, and onto the GC back to the xfrmr. Getting to the earth outside the window is not what grounding is all about.

Ya do th'hokey-pokey and ya turn yerself aroun'...

That number (240ma) is way high! (60 times!)

On the subject of the DIY avice: One of my peeves is that too many people tend to over-simplify things to the point where just about anyone thinks that they can do anything without a second thought. I'm sure that it causes many a dangerous situation.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 09-29-2001).]

Ah... Our different grounding systems again! I guess if the pipe used to ground a receptacle was properly bonded to the N-G busbar it would be OK, but it seems kind of tacky. And someone might come along later and cut out part of that pipe and insert a plastic coupling.

Ya do th'hokey-pokey and ya turn yerself aroun'...
"Hokey-cokey" here, for anyone who's remotely interested!

Bill:
I see these over-simplified explanations here regularly. I'm always saying to myself, "Ah, yes, but..."

So now milliamps measure voltage??

Leak 250 milliseconds of 240 milliamps of voltage and the breaker will stumble and fall (trip).

oops,

I missed the Voltage part
Voltage and Current get mixed up a lot from what I see. The time factor is probably off too. I think I've heard 1/10th second response time. Does anyone know?

I wish there was a way to get these jerks out of the electrical business. Ignorance gets it's own reward.

I've sometimes heard the "experts" in big DIY stores giving bad advice to customers. If it's something that could be dangerous, I'll step in and try to straighten it out.

Whether they'll take notice or not, I don't know, but at least I tried.

The trouble is when the wiring done with "expert" advice from the home store is when a fire starts. If the cause is listed as electrical we in the trade suffer a bad reputation. The cause does not list this as wiring done by a pro or homeowner.

Very good point Jim. It's a bit like the people who electrocute themselves I mentioned a while back: The coroner's verdict makes no mention of the fact that might have been doing something incredibly stupid at the time.

According to 250-130(c), it is permissible to do this, I have always thought it strange because in article 300-3(b)'all conductors of the same circuit and when used grounded and equipment grounding conductor shall be ccontained in the same raceway.
250-130(c) for Nongrounding receptalce replacement or brancch circuit extension, they list 3 conditions, most telling is no.3 which says, An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system, ergo the water pipe. which is tied back to the panel by the electrode grounding conductor.

According to the Hubbell catalog, specifications for their GFCI Industrial grade receptacle is:
Trip Level 4 to 6 ma
Trip Time 0.025 sec. Nominal
Max. Interrupting Cap. 2000A.
Op. Temp. -30Deg. F to 150Deg F
Max. Humidity 95%
More than you asked for, but important info to know, if needed.
If you buy a GFCI from the local hardware store, then check the box for specifications. If not on the box or the dealer doesn't have a cut sheet, then don't buy it.

Warren,

Thanks!
0.025 sec is quicker than I thought, that's about 1 1/2 cycles right?

I wonder what the minimum/maximum permissible Trip Time would be as per standards?

Bill