Would you like to see #12 as a minimum wire size for Residential Branch Circuits? Why or Why Not?

Bill

Nope.

#1. Waste of resources.

#2. Box fill can become a problem. Hard enough to get compliance in this area as it is.

Tom

In the town I mostly work in, they passed an ordinance in 1996 prohibiting conductors smaller than #12cu in residential buildings for new construction. This became a problem when an addition of manufactured homes was started. They had #14 but had the HUD label.

To answer Bill's question; I rarely used #14 when I was doing residential. Most of my jobs were large custom homes with long home runs. I stuck to 12-2 for voltage drop as much as the convenience of only dealing with one wire size. Box fill wasn't a problem, I never used 1G boxes smaller than 20 cuin. One contractor insisted on 4x4x2-1/8 boxes w/mudrings! I'll play if they pay!

Fred,

I am sometimes asked to use metal boxes on a Romex job, until they find out how much more it will cost.

I have yet to find a 1 gang plastic box that can handle the following scenario- three wire w/ground home run, 2 two wire cables & a receptacle. If there is a box big enough for this, my suppliers don't carry it.

Box fill is also a problem with multi-gang boxes since there isn't, in my experiance, 20 cubic inches per gang. Of course, maybe I've led a sheltered life.

Naturally, careful wiring layout can overcome the fill problems in some cases, but the multi-gang box is a problem for me since I do not run switch legs down from a light. Tack in a 3 way or two & the multi-gang boxes fill up fast.

Like you, I only buy one size single gang box, the biggest I can get. Cost difference is minimal & the work goes a lot faster.

Tom

Your right, when you start getting into homes with 2500 sq.ft., or more the runs start to become very long and voltage drop can really be a problem. I use the big 4-S too, but if there is a fil problem I will gang 2 x 3 x 3 1/2 together and never have had a problem with it. But as far as limiting the use to just no.12 for residential, I could put up with it, but i'd prefer not to. I do know in the Ccleveland area they can use no wire smaller than No.12, But even with No.12 at about 85 feet and your at the required 5 % voltage drop at 15 amps.

I've wired many a home with #12 minimum.

Used CXW 2-1/8" Deep gangable boxes.

Now, I still only use #14 for lighting circuits, all recepts are on #12 with 20A CB's, all pigtailed. Definitely got to put switched recepts on the end of the line, if one wants to go the top-switched bottom-hot split-recept thingee.

I like to put junction boxes to feed hots to switch boxes so that only one hot and no jumpers are taking up space, cramming dimmers into filled-to-the-limit boxes is just too much...

I'll occasionally drop a switch loop if it is convenient, usually it is if the J-box is in an attic.

The house I'm currently wiring has a shop that got EMT and 1-1/2 deep 4x4's (furred with 2" nominal) and plaster rings at 1/2"... Didn't want the DIY homeowner to drive a nail in the Romex when hanging his tools... Had to be real careful with wire count there too...

I will allow an exception for dedicated alarm circuits to be #14. Circuits that are meant to have receptacles or run lighting should be minimum #12.

1. Inherently more resistant to overloading.
2. Conserves resources.

Here's a killer reason for you:
3. No more backstabbed receptacles!



[This message has been edited by Dspark (edited 09-28-2001).]

I have used #12 for most of my work along with 20 cu. in. boxes. With the new vacuums rated at 12 amps it doesn't make sense not to have any reserve in the circuit.

As for box fill try to find the new Carlon Super Blue boxes. They advertise the largest rated capacity and extra rigidity.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom:
[B]Fred,
I have yet to find a 1 gang plastic box that can handle the following scenario- three wire w/ground home run, 2 two wire cables & a receptacle. If there is a box big enough for this, my suppliers don't carry it.<<

Tom,
The box for what you described is a Carlon (or equiv) 32 cu. in. nail on 4S box, with a 1/2" mud ring. Works out to about 37 or 38 cu. in. total, I think.

In resi, we use #12 minimum for everything. Even lighting circuits, since the few homes we do a year are large customs with a lot of lighting. We try to get around voltage drop by using subpanels where we can.

'66, did you ever get out of your nightmare house you were wiring a while back?

>We try to get around voltage drop by using subpanels where we can.
Would you mind throwing some numbers and locations at me?

What size in amps, feeder, number of spaces?
Where do you place the panels? What floors? How are they decorated?

I remember the little debate about whether pulling two 12-2 NM-B cables was more expensive than pulling one 12-3. Pulling one 6-3 (or even 2-3) instead of ten or twenty-five 12-2 cables sounds cleaner.

Wire size focuses on VD, Fill, Ease, etc, But now, for VT sparky's it also focuses on AFCI's in their requirement of ALL bed & living area circuits. So this in itself forces us to rethink methods, or pitch for a lot of the little boogers

Once the above is considered, all we really need meet is T220-3(a)'s 3VA per square, that's all.

VD..
a #12 @16A (80%) has approx 4.8v or 4% loss @ 75'
a #14 @ 12A (80%) has approx 4.8V or 4% loss @ 65'
not a world of difference eh?

From Mike H's newsletters;
just stating the obvious here....


If you wire bedroom branch circuits with one circuit for lighting and receptacles, this change will have little effect. But the practice of separating the lighting from the receptacle circuits in dwelling unit bedrooms will now require two AFCI circuit breakers.

To me, I would use #12 as a minimum size, just because I am that way [wierd?].
If [actually when] I wire my own House, #12 cu will be the minimum size [might go as far as using 15 amp c/b on #12 cu!].
Plenty of circuits, so 30 years down the line the ampacity per circuit will be hopefully available [if needed] without crawling thru the attic. Also to keep separate circuit for rooms, so rooms can be "isolated" if needed.
Once again, I am just that way! This would make the typical Tract wiring EC go broke, or bid 3 times higher than even the most highest bid! Possibly would workout for an EC doing Custom Houses with Clients who want a "Custom, Above-Average Electrical System".

As far as Boxfill, I have become reluctant to concentrate a lot of splices in any outlets / J-Boxes [unless absolutely necessary]. Also prefer to use large, deep Boxes and splice everything before hanging the P-Rings - that way all the wirenuts can be easilly set to the side[s] of the boxes. Of course this is not the same with PVC [Non-Metallic] Boxes - except placing wirenuts to the sides.

My biasing is due to the almost zero amount of Residential work I do, plus only have done a total of 4 tracts, 3 two story Apartment complexes, and 4 Custom Houses in my entire 18 year Career as a sparky.
I just do not know how critical things are in the Residential wiring frontier
It's hard to make good comments when >95% of my work experience for 18 years is in the Commercial Fields.

Dspark:
I was going to say the same thing about back stabbed Receptacles! You beat me to it

(snipped text) Here's a killer reason for you: 3. No more backstabbed receptacles! (snipped text)

Scott SET

When I was doing residential, I never used plastic boxes for multi-gang switches. I didn't like the way they flexed and the drywallers being able to twist them out of square. Made installing a 4G switch plate real hard. I used Raco 605 boxes and ganged 602s on to them and then used a cruiser bar across them from stud to stud. I never "looped" switches either.

According to the NEC tables I have here (1970s), #14 is rated 15A max. and #12 is 20A.

I assume that you would always use #12 on a 20A branch. So long as length (& therefore voltage drop) isn't a problem, what's the objection to #14 on a 15A circuit?

>I would use #12 as a minimum size, just because I am that way [weird?].
There are several of us who are weird that way.

> [might go as far as using 15 amp c/b on #12 cu!].
Of course. This is normal!!

>I am just that way!
So am I!

>I was going to say the same thing
Reading your post, I see that we think alike on quite a few things-- except that I think that $3.15 circuit breakers are too inexpensive to skimp on. Didn't Virgil say that he uses them for filler plates?

I should explain my comment made in another thread that I now backwire receptacles. That is backwiring with screw-down clamps -- not backstabbing.

I am using commercial receptacles now. I have to show people the package and explain that they are higher grade receptacles (plugs don't fall out so easily). Otherwise, people think that they are bad because they are so hard to get a plug into them the first ten times.


[This message has been edited by Dspark (edited 09-29-2001).]

I didn't like the way they flexed and the drywallers being able to twist them out of square.
LOL! I hear that!
Fred, those drywallers can sure be a knarly bunch!

Around here it seems that a guy has to have at least 3 DWIs before he can even apply for a drywalling job! A couple of local outfits have a 19 year-old kid drive the crew around because they don't have driver's licenses. They sit in the van at noon and have a hydraulic lunch and they scram off the jobsite promptly at 4:00PM so they can be home before their ankle bracelets go off at 5:00PM!

Hello From Colorado!!!

Around here it is a big toss up as to whether you use #14 or not. If you are one of the great number of GC's doing track homes you do.

As for me, we only use #12, but the smallest houses we do are in the 5000sq.ft. range, and the voltage drop becomes a HUGE ISSUE.

Two years ago we wired a 15,000 sq.ft. house and we even had a few circuits that had to have #10 home runs. That was the ONLY house I have ever done with a 2000a service and CT can.(don't want to do it again either)

Once upon a time, drywallers used to measure, cut holes for boxes, and mount the sheets.
Now it seems they screw the corners (doing their darndest to push the box back into the wall), then blast the hole (usually incorrect) with a router or Rotozip.
In commercial work with tin stud walls, this is a big problem.

Does anyone still do it the other way? Is this router crap just out here in the land of the "wierdos", CA?

I usually spec a subpanel to a floor, at least, if the house goes over, say 3000 sq ft, or the service is at one end of a long ranch style home. Depends on expected load in that area as to what size and number or circuits for the subpanel. For that long ranch, a 125A 8-16 circuit MLO works great fed with a #2 SER cable. For locations, a utility room with adequate space for the loadcenter, or even in a guest bedroom door alcove (one that isn't used every day) seems to be approved by the builder and homeowners regularly. Painters scuff the cover and spray it the same color as everything else, or the homeowner finds some way to conceal it, if at all.

Like all the trades, drywallers come good and bad. Some of the guys that do the big customs are pretty good, and easy to get along with. Since I refuse to do tract houses (to make any money, you're almost forced to do minimum, barely legal, if legal work, and then try to make it up in volume) I like doing neat, clean, professional work we can be proud of, and have that reputation. So, I don't see the raggedy work done by some drywallers much anymore.

Ahh, I did buy a couple of those Rotozips for us, though They're great on plaster and lath walls. No lath shaking loose and knocking down whole sections of walls!!

Is this router crap just out here in the land of the "wierdos", CA?

same crew here, when they run out of the short 'zip' bits, they use full length ones and knaw up the wires too..

Must be the same bunch that travel the country! The other thing I see a lot is that many times only the inside of the box gets cut to and therefore the box sits behind the sheetrock instead of flush. If it's not caught before spackling and painting and then they are then cut properly the sheetrock doesn't go back without some more screws and then there's a whole lot of spot patching and painting to be done. Sure makes the Sparky look like the bad guy at trim-out time.

Bill

Those drywallers are here too. When I see them and thier long zip bits, I walk in with a double bitted ax. I then tell them if I have to fix or replace wiring because they cut of chewed it up this is what I will use to open up the walls to replace the wire. And I'll send you or your boss one hell of an extra bill. The ax seems to get thier attention. Have not had to use it yet.

Hey, I think I'd like to try that approach with some British plasterers!

So that's why they call it getting plastered!

Don't know if anyone else does this but we leave a nice neat 6" loop above our boxes when we cut in. If(sorry when) the drywallers hit the wires we have that loop there just in case.

CS,

What are your stapling requirements? What distance away from the box I mean? Just curious.

Bill