Another post brought this up and thought it deserved its own thread.

In your area, what requires a permit and what doesn't?

In my area you are technically required to permit just about anything. However nobody permits the small stuff like changing a fixture or adding a receptacle unless it's part of a larger project. We permit a lot of work, but basically not the service call type work.

Does anybody permit these small things? If so, how much do you have to pay and what do you have to do to get the permit. For many jobs you could spend a lot more time getting a permit than doing the job.

My understanding is that any electrical work here requires a permit. In reality though only new work like a house, addition, new commercial property, or services get permits. Some carpenters/generals will pull permits for basement remodels, but I'd guess most don't. Service work rarely gets a permit, and sometimes service gets pretty extensive.

It's the owners responsibility to pull the permit, and if I refused to do work without a permit, I would have starved a long time ago.

Dave

Dave,
In NJ all new installations require permit,
and yes even one outlet, If you want to gamble that nothing will happen, and you are willing to assume all the liability of any loss. then It's on you.
Remember it's the underwriter that wants the inspections, and the homeowner will be the first to hit you with legal action, when his insurance does not pay, and it could be a total loss or loss of life, pretty serious stuff, and yes there are those, that gamble that nothing will happen, not the crowd to follow.

LK, I don't understand what you are saying. I don't see how having a permit and inspection is going to protect you if your installation causes a loss. From what I've seen, they're still going to sue you, and the fact that there were permits and an inspection is pretty much irrelevent to the question of whether faulty work on your part caused a loss. (Obviously, a good inspection should catch any problems, so you wouldn't be in court in the first place, but, given a loss, I don't see that the fact that an inspector also screwed up helps you much.)


(Edited to add: Please note that I'm not arguing against premits and inspections. I just don't see how they protect you from liability.)

[This message has been edited by SolarPowered (edited 11-02-2004).]

Officially, most towns around here want a permit ($$$) for any electrical work.

If you're replacing an existing fixture, you can usually make the successful argument that you aren't adding to or modifying the existing distribution system in any way.

This, of course, doesn't count the "one-wall-left-standing" type of remodel that we've seen elsewhere on this forum!

It is the owner's responsibility to pull permits, and it is NOT the electrician's job to make sure that permits have been pulled. If the inspector discovers that there is no permit for a project you are working on, all that can be done is to stop you from working on that job only. No fines, no license penalties.
It is not part of YOUR job to get the permit. If you do voluntarily take on that responsibility, then, yes, you have to show your license, and call for inspections. If you don't, then it is the responsibility of the owner or contractor.
Yes, all towns want permits for all work done in their towns. As responsible contractors, we want our work to be inspected, it is just not our responsibility. That burden belongs to the owner. He has to pay the fines, not us.
Make it clear at the beginning of the job who has this responsibility.
Next time the inspector asks you why there wasn't a permit pulled, tell him: "It's not my job, man. I told the owner, and he decided what he decided."
Of course, you might want to get your money up front, because I don't think the owner will want to pay you for an uncompleted job.

Solar,
Has nothing to do with your work, or if it was the cause of any loss. I has to do with you following the law and getting permits for your work.
The loss may have been from oil rags in the garage, and nothing to do with your work.
The problem is, the underwriting company may refuse to pay, on grounds that their contract with the insured states all permits must obtained from local or state agencies when requried.
That little clause lets them off the hook for payment, they usually offer to give back the payments made, and in some states they have to offer a fixed sum like $10,000 on a $300,000 home, And you don't want to be the one, that din't get the permit when required.
Permits do not make money for the city, they usually cost the city money to provide the service, without inspections in force in your town your insurace rating would be much higher, inspections, and fire protection help keep the rates down.
Every city throught the country is rated, these ratings are used to determine insurance rates charged for your area, so good inspections and good fire protection produce good rates for all.

Earl,

Who pulls a permit is a function of the law in effect (if any). For the State of Minnesota, the person(s) who do the work are the ones who must pull the permit. And There are provisions for additional fees, fines and even jail time.

Hi,
You should only need a permit to extend a circuit or replace a panel, service panel or meterbase. Maintenance does not need a permit.

A lot of folks I know dont bother getting permits..I do not see how they get away with it. I get a permit anytime I extend a circuit.

PS..I have seen jobs get shutdown for not having a permit...and especially if you do not have an electrical license...that is valid.

-regards

Mustang



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 11-02-2004).]

Out here we have a 10 ft/ one stick of pipe rule; more than that you need a permit- and unless you are working on the house you live in, it has to be pulled by a licensed electrical contractor.

OK, a wide geographical area seems to be covered. Eagle is on the west coast, LK & me are on the east side, & I think John S is in the southwest.

Here in NJ:
"Repairs" do not require a permit. "Repairs" mean replacement of "like for like" basically.

Permits go to homeowners of single family homes that they live in, and can only be "assisted" by a relative that resides within the same home. (The ideal situation)
Capability is a judgement call (gamble) by the AHJ that is doing the Plan review and Permit Approval. It is a very time consuming task doing HO, self, owner, etc permits.

Working without can get a max $2000 fine, per trade. Usually I issue $500, unless it's a previous offender. The State frowns on unlicensed "sparkies" and the fine, if caught can be $5 to 10K, and a snowballs chance in hell of applying or getting a lic.

Now, does everyone get a permit, for everything that requires one, all the time??

Personally, I think that anyone who says "yes" may be telling a tall tale. That is my opinion, and not directed at anyone.

BTW, for those that do not know me, I'm a PT AHJ, and also an EC in NJ.

John

It's tough when you are doing residential remodel type work. Adding the cost of a permit can cost you the job on most of the stuff HO's are asking for. Jobs like spa circuits, circuits to a shed, circuits in a garage, etc.

The majority of my work is in Riverside County, CA, and in the city of Corona, permits are required for new circuits and up. Not for items like cutting in interior light fixtures.

In Nebraska only work involving the main service requires a permit.

Municipalities within the state may have their own rules.

In the city that I do most of my work in If the job is more than $500.00 or requires a change in the service then a permit is required. Electrical permits are pulled by the electrical contractor on all jobs except those in which the home owner does the work him/her self. If someone else does the work a permit by an EC is required.
Outside the city Nebraska is as GJ said.
Across the river in IA if outside a city anyone can do what they want and hope the power company will hook them up.

Royta:
IF the costs of a permit seem excessive, or a burden....think about how much of a "burden" a $2000 fine for working WITHOUT the permit would be to you!!

A sincere 1st time offender may get a reduction to $250-$500 for a "good reason", but a licensed EC should know better.

You may have a different set of rules where you are, but here in NJ it's the "way".

John

John,

As an EC both you and I know that "YES" we should get permits for every job that we do and "NO" we don't always get permits. When the job was "closed wall" construction and there was nothing for an AHJ to look at most EC's would not pull a permit. After all what could the AHJ see? You know that the AHJ is not going to take things apart to see if all was wired right. Most times when there was a service change, new basements, new additions, andy kind of pool or spa wiring, any commercial etc. we would pull the permits. However if a homeowner wanted a couple of new lights or outlets most times most EC's would not pull the permit.

I have learned that the people most sensitive to this subject are usually the ones who do not pull permits.
Also as varied the areas the different posters are from, so are the requirements.
I like what John and Harold both said, as I fully agree.

In NY State, there are jurisdictions that do require licenses, and others that don't.
Requirements for inspection include work that is new, such as additions, adding a circuit, etc... Replacing a fixture, switch or receptacle falls under maintenance and does not require a permit or licensed electrician.

Some people will say things that are from the hip, or not necessarily true - but 'knowing' the laws are more important than shooting from the hip.
Here is the requirement for all of NY State, except for NYC. (for any residential work performed)

"R101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of one-and two- family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) not more than three stories in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures and one-family dwellings converted to a bed and breakfast."

It still staggers my mind that in an industry that is so important as ours, that there are so few regulations in large portions of our great country!!

Pierre

Pierre wrote

"It still staggers my mind that in an industry that is so important as ours, that there are so few regulations in large portions of our great country!!"

To that I add AMEN!

Harold.....you are so right! People who live in glass houses shouldn't cast stones; those who choose to work without permits, do so of their own free valition.

'Nuff said.

John

I think some are missing the reason for inspections.
In areas where there is code inforcement, there is a better underwriter rating, then in areas not inforced, without inspections we would be paying much higher rates for insurance coverage.
If you are in an area that requires a permit for work, this means that the goverment in that city has agreed to inforce the code by law, and the insurance underwriters look at this city as a better risk for insuring property there.
Now, if you fail to obtain a permit, for work done on one of these risk rated properties, then if anything happens to that property, and it does not have to be connected with the work you have done, you may end up assuming the liability of loss.
Not something i would want to do.