Yep, it's official! California has an additional six months for certification testing of Electricians state wide.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/DAS_CAC_Actions.htm

It probably wouldn't hurt to point out that this is the test completed-and-passed-by date.

The State can take a couple of months to process an application before you even get approval to take the exam. Then you have to schedule a date with Experior for the test, and I'll bet it's getting more & more crowded as time goes on.



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 11-01-2004).]

In the General portion of the bill it says they are concerned with electical connections, so I guess you just have to show them you know how to correctly install a wire nut, split bolt, or tighten a lug or screw, right?

If I had to jump through a hoop like this after 10 years as an EC, I'd double my rate.

Dave

And, of course, all the electrical inspectors will have to pass the exam also, because only someone passing the exam whould be qualified to inspect the work, right?

Dave

THanx for the info e57. I sure appreciate the update. Not so much for what is going on in California, but the states as a whole. Illinois is trying to get their act together and I'm sure they will look around to see what others are doing or done. Thanks again!

Steve

I still haven't seen anything official on enforcement. Looking at the law that was passed it is totally voluntary.

BTW, I only speak spanish now:

"The CAC passed a motion to extend the test deadline for monolingual Spanish speaking candidates for one year -- until Jan. 1, 2006."

Yo qiero taco bell.

It is NOT voluntary Senior dmattox, all Electricians as employees of C-10's, who use tools, connececting 100va or more. MANDITORY!

As for enforcement, I have it from word on high, from the Consultant hired to impliment the program, that "Insurablity" will be the enforcement method, i.e. No Certified Employees, no workmens comp, NO WORK! (The DIR also sets rules for the workmens comp' companies. And has a new "Enforcement dept".http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/dlse.html )

It hardly seems fair that for 6 months Certified Electricians will be competing with non-Certified Mexican Electricians, if I'm reading this right.

Illinois has state testing for plumbers, and the plumbers charge more than the other trades, charge for estimates, etc. When I call a plumber I expect about a $200 minimum. So in the end thinning the herd can be good.

I squeaked by the last test with a 93/100, so I might get lucky again. I feel a little sorry for the younger ones trying to get in. I self-studied 200 hours (in a few months)to get a license. They'll have to work for someone 4 years to get it.

I have this nagging feeling that it won't quite accomplish what it indends though. I see a lot of Mexican crews in other trades and know they're low-paid, & uninsured. With a Spanish NEC it's only a matter of time before they're doing electrical work. I really don't think the low-paid & uninsured will disappear with this certification testing. Low-paid foreign workers have always been a profitable part of the American economy (including my ancestors).

Dave

To Dave55
Dave, you wrote:
"And, of course, all the electrical inspectors will have to pass the exam also, because only someone passing the exam whould be qualified to inspect the work, right?
Dave"

Inspectors have been required to be certified for some time now. Another state law. You wouldn't know it by some of things that are still asked for out there. It is getting better, though.
I've taken the IAEI, ICBO (now ICC) and the state electrical certification exam. The elect. cert. exam is by far the easiest. I didn't have to take but I wanted to. I used to work as an electrician (I still am one) so it was legal for me to take it. Besides just for personal reasons, I wanted to for the same reason you put in your post.

Wish there were more like you, sandsnow.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I don't want to linger on the Mexico card too long, but it does seem only slightly fair seeing that they have only just two months ago provided any information about this law in spanish, and DO NOT have a spanish test yet! ( One must also remember that California was once part of Mexico, and some of them would not mind taking it back! )They figure they might have a test in Spanish six months before they are all due, leaving a huge number of people who must take it last minute.

We also must remember that only 70% of the electrical trade know (English speaking or not) of this test anyway, which also includes people who only speak Chinese (Two Kinds), Tagaolog, French, etc, etc.

California is a very diverse place, and to give you an example, I'll use my crew.

1 Chinese
2 Philipino
2 Mexican
3 Nicuragua (A different Spainish dialect)
1 Samoa
1 Irish (A different English dialect)
4 American born

And everyone speaks english fuentley at work, (as I mis-spell) but don't read it very well. I also have half of this crew who have been in the trade for over 15 years, some 20! 50% have passed, 25% are re-testing, 25% have not recieved their paper work back yet. But were supposed to have already taken it months ago.

Bottom line is this law is being completely mis-managed. It was signed into law almost 6 years ago, and they have been holding it over our heads with little to no action for years. I suspect it will get knocked back again in another six months.

"It is NOT voluntary Senior dmattox, all Electricians as employees of C-10's, who use tools, connececting 100va or more. MANDITORY!"

Can you show me somewhere in the law that shows its not voluntary? Not the DAS website, but the actual law.

Now it may be forced in without proper wording in the law, but as the law read it was voluntary, unless I misunderstand the word "may".

"Chapter 2. California Apprenticeship Council
Subchapter 4. Electrician Certification
New query
§290.0. General
Scope and Application: Improper electrical connections can result in fire or other damage to property and can cause injury and death. Any individual MAY apply for certification showing that the individual possesses the skill, knowledge and training to safely and competently make electrical connections of 100 volt-amperes or more in the course of doing work for an electrical contractor."

dmattox, here you go..... Found here: Manditory!
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/01-02/bill/asm/ab_1051-1100/ab_1087_bill_20020529_chaptered.html



The "may" in the context you quote is that an individual "may" apply, he "may" not have a job much longer either. I'm not trying to get your goat, but it is for real.... Although postponed????

The part that I find upsetting about this is that I will be renewing my 3 year old certification 3 months after the monolingual Spanish deadline.

If there wasn't such an economic issue involved, I would see this postponement as nothing more than a reward for apathy and laziness.

I stand corrected, thanks e57.

I think it will never go into effect though due to lack of participation. I have heard there are around 75,000-100,000 electricians in the state, and only 10,000 people have passed the test to date (per DAS website), then that’s 10% of the states electricians have it. There is a critical mass where enforcement becomes impossible. Or enforcement would be so bloody that the state politicians will not allow the fallout (as we have seen for the last few years with delay after delay).

But regardless, I still have my test date and will be taking the exam. Having another card in my wallet can't hurt right?

To Dave55 - Thank You,

Regarding the renewal date, there is a RUMOR that it is likely that all renewals will start at 3 years from the "final" "final" deadline that the CAC sets.

What is typical of our state is that no rulemaking has been done on enforcement and standards for continuing education for renewal.

I'm optimistic about the certification program. It sounds like I'm being naive, but given time it could develop into something worthwhile.

The lack of education in the code is terrible in this state. My hope is that the continuing education will correct that.

Right now the test is easy and qualifying for it is even easier. No proof needed. Eventually I predict it will get harder.

No one who lives here should be surprised at the deference given to ESL (english second language) people. As I am, you have every right to be frustrated about it.

Yes there is some truth to the rumor.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm

This is going to change too..... Because of the postponement.

And as for "enforcement", the parent of the DAS, the DIR, is also in charge of rule making for Workmen's Comp', I have it essentially from the houses mouth that "insurablity" will be the method of enforcment. No Certification, no insurance, no work!

In ideal, as a concept Certification is great, but not like this. In my opinion this law should be handled by the CSLB, not the DAS. (Which happen to be a bunch of $100 an hour consultants, and a handfull of state employees, who have no contact with the trade on the ground.)

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 11-02-2004).]

Just a question regarding the three classifications: Journeyman, Residential and Fire Life Safety Technician.

Does a Journeyman electrician have to be certified as a Fire Life Safety technician also?

Your interpretations would be welcome!

The provincial government up here axed our "compulsory certification" requirement for trades just over a year ago.

So far its made no difference. They have yet to create an alternative system. The existing 4-year apprenticeship model and "Red Seal" certification continues.

The talk seems to be that the smaller outfits and builders used 'helpers' anyway back when indentured apprentices were mandatory; so no change there. The larger companies value the skills that properly educated apprentices bring to the job, so they are continuing to endorse the existing apprenticeship model.

Even a sudden blitz of cheap labour will fizzle out with the shoddy workmanship. How many "greenies" would you want to babysit and take responsibility for? Suddenly the certified guy is in high demand.

Seems cyclic to me. Skill will prevail. IMO, the trade stands by itself, - it doesn't need a legislative crutch.

frankg,

That is an excellent question!

The way it is written, (the law that is) it is very "General" about the General Journeyman classification. That is to say very broad about what one can do. If read the the way it written.... Someone in the "General" classification can do anything covered in the NEC. Yet makes no mention of Fire/Life Safety or anything like that. And the Fire/Life Safety Technichian, can only work within Art. 760? (Not that the article has anything to do with the design or implimentation of fire alarm systems, just the cabling of them, for the most part.) And like the other three classification, are very limited. But this only applies to persons working under a contractor with a C-10 license. Which is also broadly defined.

Quote

C-10 Electrical Contractor

An electrical contractor places, installs, erects or connects any electrical wires, fixtures, appliances, apparatus, raceways conduits, solar photovoltaic cells or any part thereof, which generate, transmit, transform or utilize electrical energy in any form or for any purpose."

So what does it mean.... The Fire Alarm guy can't run his own conduit, because it is covered in chapter 3?

electure,

I sent my application in on 2/10/04 and received my eligibility notice on 3/04/04.

I scheduled my exam with Experior in October 2004 with one weeks notice.

Frank

Dave55

I work with a lot of good Technicians who are "Mexican" out her in California.

I don't think six months will make a big difference, considering our economy.

The bottom line is that C-10 contractors need to hire Certified Electricians. If they are not certified by the deadlines they will be required to enter an apprenticeship program.

To: sandsnow

I like the part of your response that "I didn't have to take but I wanted to."

I am in the same boat, I work on Fire/Life Safety Systems for a University whom does not and not required to have C-10 License. I chose to be certified to know what the requirements were for contractors working on and installing Fire/Life Safety systems on campus.

frankg

e57:

Thanks for your detailed reply to my question. First I would like to comment on your Post on 11-02 regarding the CSLB or the DAS. I don't agree the CSLB is the answer. Think about it, once a person passes the test they can have or be a part of 3 licences with no further accountability as to their knowledge current codes.

e57:

As far as my original question, after 4 emails to the DAS I received a response from the acting chief of the DAS.

She stated "The DAS is meeting with the advisory committee and the firm that developed the tests to clarify this issue"

"As soon as the DAS has a definitive answer, DAS will notify you and the public".

frankg,

This testing only applies to employees of C-10's, otherwise useless to other contractor classifications. And, there are some more things for the DAS to figure out. The law requires proof of continuing edjucation for renewal every three years. It's still up in the air about where that edjucation will be accepted from, as "Approved Curriculum" is still being developed. And there has been much debate over where that "Approved Curriculum" can be taught. Community Colleges, and the like, I believe are still trying to be able to do it. As far as licensed C-10's not staying up to date on current codes, they would have a hard time getting through inspections would they not? And, I think it is safe to say most here are very well up to date.

Oh, frankg, they actually answered an e-mail? (about 100) I never got any responce that way, and only recently did I get someone on the phone.


[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 11-30-2004).]

e57, My point was that once a "person" passes the CSLB exam he/she can be the RMO/RME/ on 3 licenses as long as they state they meet the CSLB's requirements and pay the license $$$$. I have seen this policy abused. An example is a person passing the C-10 exam can own his own company, can be an employee of a company for their license and can have a partnership, therfore 3 C-10 licenses with no accountability.

As far as the renewal requirements, I agree that workers need to stay educated with today's technology.

"As far as licensed C-10's not staying up to date on current codes" I totally agree but who gets through the inspections? It's ussually not the CSLB C-10 holder, it's the person in the field, be it a foreman/worker.

e57,
To continue, I would just like to close on a positive note and that I believe certification for workers performing this type of work is a good thing and as an example invite you to visit www.nicet.org to review their policy's on renewal's and continuing education.

As far receiving e-mails from them, I have been very successful.

Looking forward to further "posts"

fgardner

As far as the three licenses thing, as far as I know, unless it has changed... there can only be a single DBA/bussiness name, otherwise its a corrective/revokable offense. And according to the newsletters from the CSLB, all of which are filled with 50% of content of revoked and suspended licenses. (All of them are really funny... One page, so-and-so got this award, and next, our sting operation caught these guys, then 3 pages in smaller font of revoked licenses.)Check a few out, (I'm not trying to get your goat, these are funny, they gloat about thier enforcemnt in every one.)http://www.cslb.ca.gov/news/newsletters.asp

But as far as the continuing edjucation situation with the Electrical Certification Program, as it stands now, on-line types of courses, and even Community Colleges, Universities, and Trade School organizations are still confused about if they can offer these required courses. http://www2.abc.org/documents//ElecTest082704.pdf
Or for that matter, only one element of the approved curriculum has been in draft proposal.

We'll have to step back a bit, for some history on this law... In '99/2000 when the original law was signed, the ONLY "Approved" Apprenticeship, and continuing edjucation was through the JATC. Then the Fed's said, 'No money for any of your state apprenticeship programs until you fix that.' Since then they have re-written this thing several times. So now, appreticeship can be through only two or three Trade Organizations, (Like ABC, and Western) and can only be supplimented by a Community College if you can prove that the applicant is "isolated". Then for the 'Continuing Edjucation' part, the wording for the regulation, and law are so ambiguous that no one knows what to make of it.

Long story short, nobody knows if the school on the link you posted will be acceptable as "Appoved Class-room Instruction".

Anyway, not trying to get your goat... This law as an "idea" is good, but not playing out well. Has a lot of people in the trade divided. And, truthfully, may not be enforceable until well after our cards have expired.

Frank, I stand corrected.... There is another approved apprenticship program out there. (For the FLS guys out there.) http://www.wbfaa.net/

e57,

Thanks again for your positive feed back. Trust me, a single person can be the "responsible person" on 3 CSLB license's. I owned 2 seperate business's with 2 different license's.

My reference to N.I.C.E.T. was not a school but an example to a program that has re-certification requirements.

I really believe if electricians would take this more seriously and just become certified, they would have more bargaining power, union/non union included.

Why fight it?

frankg

Exactly! If the people that fought so long and hard against this thing had the foresight to educate their electricians, maybe just in case, there wouldn't be this dilemna of dummies that there is now.

These people are not taking this certification not because of the principle of the thing, but because they are afraid they won't pass, and I believe that wholeheartedly.
The ones that can't pass are the exact reason that this went into effect. They aren't Journeyman electricians, no matter what title they or their boss have "bestowed" on them.
They should be enrolled in apprenticeship programs, where they can learn something, not promoted to Foreman with 2yrs experience, like so many newspaper ads say :

"Wanted, Journeyman Electrician. Min 2yrs experience" (Taken right out of the OC Register's ads).
Would you hire them and turn them loose on their own?

Yeah, I'll probably be retired before they work out the bugs.


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-02-2004).]

I agree! You can say that again!

never mind..............

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 12-03-2004).]

electure & Joe Tedesco,

Thanks for your comments, it appears e57 likes to put info out but doesn't want to hear about the downside of the CSLB overseeing this program and making electricians accountable.

Just a Bio on me, I have been in the fire/life safety field for 25 years. I have seen fire alarm systems progress from old relay logic to new micro-processor based systems. I support this certification program for many reasons. For qualified installers/service tech's to fight it, I agree they just don't have confidence they can pass it.

While taking my Fire/Life Safety exam, I thought of many electricians that I've worked with that don't have the knowledge of NFPA 72 the "National Fire Alarm Code".

In a previous post I indicated I contacted the DAS regarding the classifications. I will post any future responses I receive.

Frank (I believe),

E57 here, I do like to put info out about certification for several reasons.

1. Most electricians don’t know this law exists.
2. Of the ones who do know, are not educated in the details of it that would affect their livelihoods.

That is my ignoble cause….. (oh well.)

As ECN doesn't like to get too polical, something I really like about the site, I'm going to e-mail you direct. Not trying to pick a bone with you about it, but we can only go so far in discussing the politics of this issue on this forum.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 12-05-2004).]