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Posted By: bp-redbear light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 06:03 AM
Sorry for long post, please read, though.

I have a friend who remodelled part of his home after a fire. He had a friend do most of the wiring, but my friend helped, and decided what went where. The work was inspected, (and passed?). I asked if there were any violations, and he said the inspector told him that the only problems he had were some "twisted wires" that needed to be straightened out??

Though they put each room on separate circuits, separate lighting circuits, separate m-wave circuit, etc. I see numerous violations of Article 210(A)(1) on receptacle spacing, no receptacle in the storage/pantry, things like that.

But, my post is really about the light switches. Has anyone seen (and what is the code) where a switch controls the light to a room that you are about to enter? For example, the kitchen light is controlled by two 3-way switches, but, each switch is located on the OUTSIDE of the doorways in/out of the kitchen, in the next room.
So, as you prepare to enter the kitcken from the entryway, you turn on the kitchen light BEFORE you walk through the doorway into the kitchen. If you walk through the kitchen, there is a switch at the next doorway to turn on the light for the next room. Once you enter that room, there is a switch on THAT side of the doorway to turn the kitchen light off.

His thinking is that you turn a light "on" to a room BEFORE you enter that room, and you turn that light "off" only AFTER you exit that room.

The WHOLE first floor is this way, (five rooms including the bathroom - whose light is, of course, on the outside of the bathroom, not one on the inside!!).

Is this bizarre, or common???

I have no idea which switch to flip in his house. He (and wife and kids do), but who else would???

The fire, by the way, before the remodel, was determined to have been caused by a defect in a microwave which caused it to catch fire and spread (they were not home at the time, and m-wave was off).
Posted By: iwire Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 08:11 AM
The NEC does not specify switch locations except at stairways and utility rooms.

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The WHOLE first floor is this way, (five rooms including the bathroom - whose light is, of course, on the outside of the bathroom, not one on the inside!!).

You friend could have located all the switches for these rooms near the front door if he wanted to. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Yoopersup Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 12:09 PM
210.70A1 (Shall be installed IN every habitable Room.)
Posted By: electricman2 Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 03:12 PM
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210.70A1 (Shall be installed IN every habitable Room.)
The lighting outlet must be in the room. Does not say the switch must be in the room. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by electricman2 (edited 10-20-2004).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 04:14 PM
I've seen this before and have to vent on one situation. I don't think having the switch for the Bathroom light outside the room is a good idea.

[Linked Image]
Bill
Posted By: Dave55 Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 04:53 PM
It may not be a good idea, Bill, but it's not a code violation. My house was wired with switched outlets. Not all the outlets, but only the one nearest the switch. That never seemed to be the one we wanted to plug a lamp into. I don't think this is a good idea either.

I don't want to sound rude about this, but maybe you should have provided your friend with an electrical print approved by the local building department, which your friend could have discussed with you so there wouldn't have been this misunderstanding. (Thank you, thank you, this is the world record for the longest run-on sentence)

Dave
Posted By: iwire Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 07:46 PM
Hi Bill

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I've seen this before and have to vent on one situation. I don't think having the switch for the Bathroom light outside the room is a good idea.

I agree that inside is better [Linked Image], however I am glad that the code leaves it open.

I have had to put the switch outside the bathroom in some very small apartments.

The other choices where in the shower or behind the door swing. [Linked Image]

Same for some small apartment kitchens, the switch would have been over the stove or far from reach inside.

Options are always appreciated in the field. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: Hutch Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 08:45 PM
Re bathrooms ...
In the UK (and South Africa), unless the light is switched by a drop cord from the ceiling, the switch *has* to be outside of the bathroom. Wet fingers and all that.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 09:16 PM
Personally, I'm an OFF person. I like turning the light OFF as I'm leaving the room. I guess your friend is an ON person who likes to switch a light on as he's entering a room. I guess from your post that you're an OFF person also.

My family would have a party in a house with the switches outside the room...turning the light off for the person in the room, especially for the bathroom.

The question that burns in my mind about this is, didn't you notice this at your friends house??? If I had a friend who wired his house with all the switches outside the rooms, I'd tell him I wanted mine inside the rooms.

Article 210 III covers Required Outlets.

Dave
Posted By: bp-redbear Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 11:18 PM
Thanks for the replies.

My friend did the remodel about three years ago. At that time, I was unaware of what the NEC required (or didn't require). I had not ever read or seen the NEC, although I was, and am, an industrial mechanic. I have a AOS degree in Electromechanical Systems Mechanics, however, we did not cover any residential wiring, or the NEC at all, for that matter.

I have only begun studying the NEC (2002) within the past few months, and have learned a lot. (Especially in my industrial career, knowing which wiring methods are legal, safe, how to size OCPD, motor overloads, etc.)

At the time of the remodel, I had told him that I thought his method was odd, and that I would locate the switches inside the room that the light was in. He is a person who has to do things 'his' way, regardless of anyone else's suggestions.

For instance, when installing a shelf in a closet, I suggested that he not install it too high, making sure his wife could reach the shelf. After the closet was completed, he said, "I should have installed that shelf lower". Among other things...

Anyway, I am not "knocking" his install, in fact it is pretty good considering he is in no way an electrician, nor was his helpers (including myself). I am only asking if this is common, or if it is legal.
Posted By: Active 1 Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/20/04 11:35 PM
Sometimes you don't have much of a choice because of cabnets, double doors, other doors, and fraiming. My first choice is inside the room. But I give people what they want with in reason.

Tom
Posted By: Sir Arcsalot Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/21/04 01:22 AM
I prefer the switches on the inside (especially the rest room) for one usually-overlooked reason: sometimes you don't want people turning the lamp(s) ON while you're in there, e.g., using the room as a temporary photographic darkroom [Linked Image].
Posted By: John Steinke Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/21/04 01:42 AM
Bill, you're comment illustrates how different people view "safety." While I was overseas, the locals in a few places assured me that switches HAD to be outside the bathroom, that this was "safer", as there was less electricity exposed to moisture. (That these same places often had the water heater IN the spray of the shower was not considered a hazard). (I'll try to post a photo, if I can find ine).

In the room, outside the room, doesn't matter. My own place was built ('40's) with two in the rooms (LR & Bath), one outside the room (Kit), and one room without (BR). Go figure.

Of course, this means that a light outside the bedroom may be controlled by a switch in the bedroom, without that switch being AFCI protected.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/21/04 02:24 AM
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Bill, you're comment illustrates how different people view "safety."
John,

I haven't heard instances of the light switch inside the Bathroom being a safety issue. If it was I think it would have been addressed in the code before now.

I do think if the Bathroom light gets turned off (can easily happen because it's outside) it can lead to injuries though - especially if the person is in the Shower or Bathtub and has to get out in the dark.

I do know it's not a violation to have the switch on the outside, but my own preference, by far, would be to have control of it while I'm inside.

[Linked Image]
Bill
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/25/04 04:49 PM
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I've seen this before and have to vent on one situation. I don't think having the switch for the Bathroom light outside the room is a good idea.

So do I, but used to be code in many European country. Pre-1970ies bathrooms usually don't have any wiring inside, except for the ceiling light, maybe a wall sconce high up out of reach and _maaaybe_ a shaver outlet with isolation transformer. The walls sconces are usually controlled by pull-chain switches with plastic chains. I've seen a case where they mounted a pull-chain switch on the wall, just below the ceiling, with a long chain hanging down next to the door, controlling the ceiling light. Seems like that was the only way to get around the "no switch in the bathroom" requirement. Electric water heaters simply weren't used back then, gas or wood fired only.
Posted By: pauluk Re: light switches outside rooms? - 10/25/04 06:26 PM
The switch for the main light in my bathroom is actually located just outside the door, in the hallway.

It's never really bothered me one way or the other, although I have to admit that I seldom use the main light and usually just switch on the striplight over the mirror which has its own pullcord.

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In the UK (and South Africa), unless the light is switched by a drop cord from the ceiling, the switch *has* to be outside of the bathroom. Wet fingers and all that.
Not quite true Hutch (for the U.K. anyway).

The IEE Regs. here don't prevent the use of a normal wall switch in a bathroom, although this seems to be a commonnly held misconception.

The rules state that any such switch must be out-of-reach of somebody in the shower or tub. Some of the postage-stamp sized British bathrooms might mean that a pullcord is needed, but if you can achieve the required clearance there's nothing to stop you installing a regular switch.
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