Backround: My husband and I own a home inspection company and are starting to perform inspections on home's that have suffered damage from Hurricane Frances.

A concern that we have is the effects of salt water damage to electrical wiring, fixtures, connections etc. The water that has damaged these properties in varying degrees has a very high salt concentration.

I am in the process of doing some research and it would be helpful to me to find out what your experiences have been when dealing with this type of peril.

From a home inspectors prospective we are inclined to advise and recommend a full evaluation of the electrical system during the design repair process. What are your thoughts on this?

Note: The type of inspections we are offering do not include a technical electrical evaluation, they are limited to visible storm damage.

Thanks in advance,
Ellen
A-1 Home Inspections

I would suggest you try a home inspection website, such as

www.nachi.com

I personaly do not see how you can offer an evaluation that is based on visual inspection only. In the case of damage sustained in the likes of Hurrican Frances wherby the building has been subjected to severe movement cables could have been stressed and weakened, some in-depth testing would be needed to find the true extent of the damage. In most cases would have thought complete rewiring would have been the only solution to be 100% sure.
Just my opinion of course.
Re: The contamination from salt water would have thought that there may be a spray available to neutralise the action. As its only a short term immersion. Be interesting to see what other members think.

Ellen,

Welcome to ECN.
Here is some info from NEMA:

Guidelines for Handling Water Damaged Electrical Equipment

Bill Addiss

Thank you for your replies.

I was just able to talk with our Favorite Electrician who is also a GC. He is currently working storm damage.

He confirmed my belief that all devices that are located in water damaged areas ie: walls and ceilings need replacement. He said that these are often overlooked by the homeowner and insurance adjusters.

I posted this question on this board as I am interested in your findings concerning electrical systems after a hurricane that caused moderate damage. I look forward to more discussion.

Being located in a salt intrusive environment we are aware of the detrimental effects of corrosion to panelboards etc that is caused by ongoing "normal" conditions in our area.

Thanks again in advance,
Ellen

The home inspector's site is www.nachi.org

After reading the posts on this site for years I was under the impression when I posted this inquiry it would be taken as an interesting topic for discussion.

I certainly would not have posted this inquiry on this board if I thought I would get better feedback from NACHI board participants.

Obviously some of you have no respect for anyone in the home inspection field or have not had any experience dealing with hurricane damage.

I can tell you out of every inspection we perform a licensed electrician gets work as a result of it, which would not be the case otherwise. That might be something you may keep in mind next time you shun a home inspector for posting on your public site.

Sincerely,
EB

I have to tottaly agree, as a electrical contractor i use this site often, daily to be exact! And yes it is a public site for anyone to post! therfor the proir post in responce to this topic are totally out of line. If you do not have anything helpful to say keep it to yourself. I am highly disappointed in the response to this topic and feel that mangement of the site owes the person whom posted the first thread a sincere apoligy! All they were looking for was some helpful information from a electrical standpoint! Maybe if you were to lose everything you own to a storm you would know how this people feel.

Actually I think BIll's link was very appropriate and helpful, Why not go straight to the source. I didn't take Ryan's link as a dish off, but maybe I'm wrong. N1ist was a correction to Ryan's link from .com to .org., and aland was what she was looking for, so I don't know what the problem is.

Maybe just a misunderstanding?

Hopefully the prior commetns weren't about me, but if they were, let me explain myself.

You are a home inspector, and you are asking advice on how to do a home inspection! I reccommended a site chocked full og home inspectors willing to help!!!

If that is being a bad guy, then hey, I'm guilty as cahrged.

Ellen,

I agree with jps1006, I think there may be some misunderstanding here.

Personally, I think interaction with Home Inspectors is a great idea and this is an excellent question to bring up. I would like to hear more discussion on it myself.

Bill

I did misunderstand, we were 5 days without power (we are the lucky ones) and that can mess you up in the head somewhat. When I organize my photos I will post a photo of what our cables look like after the storm.

Bill, thank you for your welcome and the valuable link. I will include the link in our reports as a reference.

Aland, thank you for your reply in the few cases we have seen thus far the mastheads, risers and overhead lines are a mess. The power companies are cutting some lines to some peoples houses till the homeowners get electricians to work on the equipment that is the homeowners responsibility.

We will be recommending that any wall or ceiling containing receptacles, switches, fans etc that have sustained water damage be replaced by a licensed electrician.

We are visibly checking overhead lines, masts for stress, exterior/interior panels for water/moisture intrusions.

Is there anything in addition that may be hidden from view that you guys uncover or think you may find in this situation that we can relay to the homeowner to convince them to have an electrical contractor perform a full evaluation of the electrical system once the power is on? Do you think a full evaluation is necessary when the majority of damage is water related? Note: We do not have any flooding (rising water).

The work that you guys do save lives, we are here to convince the consumer the importance of hiring a licensed electrician in lieu of their neighbor Bill or Bob from Georgia that is here to take an advantage of the situation. The more info we have the easier it is to convince our customers to do the right thing and hire a licensed electrician.

Believe it or not, in alot of cases the homeowner does not fear messing around with their and their friends electrical systems.

Sincerely,
EB

No house ever passes an inspection without electrical issues?? or does that mean you use an electrician to inspect the wiring??

Walrus, thanks for your interest.

We perform the electrical inspection along with the mechanical, roof etc. So the answer would be as a result of our inspection, work is generated in all fields. We do not pass or fail anything. We Report, document and photo our findings.

An example. Typical 14 yr old house panel: Sub panel garage: Full of overspray. Knockouts missing covers. Doubletapped grounded (neutral)conductors. Ground conductor added to the grounded bus bar. Ground conductors at ground side of bus bar in a single screw terminal that are different sizes.

When the electrician comes out to do the work, we expect if there are other problems we might not be aware (still learning as everyone is in every field)those will be brought to the attention of the appropriate party.

We look at the listing and labeling of the panel, take photos of the label if present for additional support for our findings.

In a nut shell: We try to provide as much information to our customers so they understand the importance of getting problems fixed.

If anyone has any additional information we can pass on to our hurricane victum customers to alert them to dangerous situations that may be present and not readily visible (most have no power) I would be interested in hearing them.

Sincerely,
EB

Ellen,

How do the Insurance Companies stand on this issue? What are the guidelines they follow for estimating damage? (what they will pay for)

I think these issues have to be evaluated too before a recommendation is made. The NEMA reference I linked to only talks about replacement of cables (NM-B specifically mentioned) that have been submerged in water.

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for the interest.

I don't know but at this point I believe that the insurance adjuster with a copy of our report inclusive of back up information will be more apt to pay for replacement of devices rather then disregard a potentionally hazardous condition. The information that we provide usually results in a call to an electrician for additional support if disputed. Maybe someone that does work as a result of insurance claims has better knowledge of that.

(I think these issues have to be evaluated too before a recommendation is made.)
With respect, if I understand correctly, I have a question. Why would the recommendation be different based on what the insurance company will pay on a claim?

I would hope that our customer would take our advice and the followup advice of a licensed electrician and fix the problem regardless of who is paying for it.

Sorry about the thread drift but maybe the following comments will give you guys some insight as to where we are coming from. We are just concerned in providing accurate information so the end user is aware so they have the opportunity to make an educated decision when it concerns their families safety.

What attracts me to the poster's on this board is you guys take potentional hazardous conditions very seriously. You will find on the home inspector web boards some posters are working for someone other than their customer and will pick and choose what to inform the customer of, decide in their own minds what codes and standards are important and the result is a vague, meaningless report and a quick sale of the house.


EB

Ellen,

I don't know what their guidelines are, but if you are recommending widespread replacement of wiring that will not be covered by Insurance you should be very sure that damage has indeed been done. Otherwise you would be doing a disservice to the Owner.

I suggest trying to contact wiring, device and fixture manufacturers for their opinions on when damage has been done to their products.

Bill

I used to wire homes in Florida a few decades back.
I do not recall any common use of alum ser cables in that area, but anyway if there is salt water contacting any alum conductors then there will probably be problems with those connections.

Bill, Excellent idea. I will email a couple of manufacturers on Monday and see what their recommendations are.

What we are seeing is satuated walls with outlets and switches and satuated ceilings with fans and fixtures. We are not recommending widespread replacement of wiring inside the wall. And yes, that would be a disservice to the claiment. The condition of the wiring inside the walls and ceilings we would defer over to an electrician to determine. The electrician I talked to said that the corrosion at the connections may not be readily visible right away but over time may form and cause the loss of the neutral, make sense?

MacMikeMan, 99% of the home's we inspect here in east central florida the entrance cables (same as ser cables?)are aluminum. That is not the case in south east florida (Dade county) they are copper.

Thanks for your ideas
Sincerely,
EB

Salt water's not just an issue for AL wiring, but copper too, to a lesser extent. Al/clad alloys,(the type used for neutral and CB busses in panel work, most wire nut too) have rather sever reactions to moisture of any kind.

Then there is the possibility of flooded conduits and cables where this moisture will sit unable to evaporate for months or years to come. As the grounds in these are often unisulated. Deteriation may be unnoticed for years.

For issues of water contamination, there are certain chemical solutions like CRC 2-26, and Corrosion-X, that can be used in limited situations, but like Bill mentioned contacting manufaturers for for advise on if that can be done to thier product would be advised. I would assume most would advise replacement.

I could also assume there are dehumidifiers everywhere in Florida now.

Thanks for the reply E57.

Bill, thank you for directing me to the NEMA web site, for now I am using the article:

NEMA and ESFI Warn Hurricane, Flood Victims About Hazardous Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment
07 Sept 2004

I will talk to some of the electricians working the claims as I run into them to see what type of actual damage they are running into or anticipate over the long run.

Thanks,
EB

When a hurricane hit us here in NJ several years ago ( I think it was the remains of Andrew) We had some flooding damage. The state said that as an AHJ I was to allow the people to use the piece of equipment if it looked good, didn't go under water and if a lic. elec. contractor took out a permit for the job. This way he took the responsability for the equipment. If the equipment went under water, Again we would be able to leave the equipment in place ONLy IF a contractor took out a permit and was responsible for the equipm. Or else we could get it field tested, but as you figure out, that was the most costly route. Long story short, equip. that went under water was normally junked.

 
I wonder if it’s at all practical to use the NEC 550-550-12(a) AC-“junior hipot” 900/1080-volt test on once-flooded premises wiring?

[I have no firsthand experience with this, but offhand, it sounds like AFCI retrofit of previously waterlogged circuits may be suicide.]

I don't want to push this thread in another direction, but for this statement, Ms Burns deserves an award for "Quote of the Year". Not only do they pick and choose what they report, I often get the distinct impression they are working off a bulleted list of "common violations" provided by their online/home-study college, and what's not on that list isn't noted.

A couple of things we are running into.

Drip loops that are no longer in tact.

Mult-strand aluminum service entrance cables where some of the strands are broken.

Blown off a/c condenser disconnect covers.

EB

quote:
"I don't want to push this thread in another direction, but for this statement, Ms Burns deserves an award for "Quote of the Year". Not only do they pick and choose what they report, I often get the distinct impression they are working off a bulleted list of "common violations" provided by their online/home-study college, and what's not on that list isn't noted."
_____________________________________________

When we get to the inspection repairs, the first thing we hear is, I don't want to do anymore, then the work on the list, If you can't do it, then I will get someone that will.

Ellen, you can see why there is, a turn off position to Home Inspectors, once the home inspector makes the list of repairs required, then that becomes the the that's all I will do list, for the seller.
When we arrive, and find other violations, they question our motives.
We find many missed, serious violations after an inspection " provided by their online/home-study college, and what's not on that list isn't noted." inspector.

LK, Great response.

We recommend to our clients that they hire their own licensed contractors for further evaluation to design repairs, give cost estimates etc. We tell them that they will be living with the results of the repairs, not the seller and not the realtor. That contractor I hope would notify the buyer of any additional problems that were not reported/missed by the home inspector. The educated buyer will get the estimates from a contractor they would like to have the work done by and take a cash settlement. That is the ideal situation, which I know is not always the case. We try to get it across to our clients they want someone working for them.

What LK brought up definately is a problematic situation, especially if your working for the seller but the buyer is the end user and will be living with hazardous conditions that may be present that were not disclosed/documented by the seller or contractor.

So, if the home inspector was not performing the inspection in the first place the buyer and seller most likely don't know a potential hazard exists. If the home inspector is there the seller and buyer may be made aware of potential hazards.

When the contractor comes to do the work on the problems that are documented by the home inspector he/she finds additional problems. (That does not surprise me that an inspector would not know about a problem(s)and/or one problem reveals another.) How do you guys usually handle this?

EB

I have had varied experience(s) with home inspectors. Some know their stuff and others are simply horrible.

If you have any doubt about wiring being safe or not, jot down that they should have their wiring checked out by a licensed and insured electrical contractor. And you can tell them that "NO!"; this does not fall under the "FREE ESTIMATES" category! If a tool comes out of my pocket it's a service call.

A licensed/insured contractor will not likely put his name on a job (and assume liability, even if limited) unless he is sure it is safe.

Depending on actual damage the house may need to be re-wired completely. It all depends...

CJS

Hello all, first post on these forums.

Ellen,

I am an electrcian working in the central Florida area, and am currently working on several storm damage related jobs. The types of damage we have seen so far have been flodding or run-off damage, shearing (or tearing) and crushing damage as a result of the high winds.

Where we have been called out to deterine if devices are "safe" we have recomended replacement of all "appliance" type devices such as ceiling fans or exhaust fans (and/or heaters) that may have come in contact with substantual water. We also provide an estimate for a full inspection of all electrical connections.

The majority of the storm repair has been to electrical devices installed on the exterior of residences and commercial property, primarily the service entrance point.

In the event of flooding (standing water) I would recommend replacement of all devices affected, if water exposure was brief complete replacment may not be nessasary.

Oh, just for the record, we went 11 days without "commercial" power. I wouldn't be much of an electrician if I couldn't provide it for myself at least temporarilly . Although, it still wasn't enough for the A/C, maybe by next season.

Dave

Crisco,
We are in Melbourne, send me an email if you are interested in referrals for residential fixtures, outlets etc change outs. You probably have heard of our company and have seen our reports if you do residential work.

CJS, you are definately correct there are some horrible inspectors and they are a detriment to the profession as with all professions.

Do any of you call the home inspector in which you are following and let him/her know what else you found that they did not? Just as a courtesy? Anytime I recommend a contractor I ask him to give us a call and let us know if they found anything else they can tell us about.

EB