You guys here are pretty well experienced in matters Electrical.
I had a phone call from a pre-spective Apprentice, tonight and I asked them what sort of experience they had.
I was told that they would start from the bottom and work up.
Sure, that's OK, but I would like to think that anyone that I take out on a job, has a basic idea on what happens in an Electrical/Construction environment.
Sure I can teach them the basics, and the kid could have good skills in working in roof-voids.
But from what she told me, she does not like enclosed spaces or spiders.
I'm not sexist in the least, but I really don't think that this would work out.
What do you people think?.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 05-14-2004).]

My personal experience is that women should not be out in the field,as it is more than likely to cause a multitude of problems.
If they want to be in volved with construction there is plenty of inside work that they can find just as fulfilling.

I don't like spiders eather but I don't think I would let that slip out during a job interview.

I guess the real question is how it would affect their job performance. I have no problem in an open space killing some that I come across. Going down in a damp crawel space filled with cob webs and spiders running each way that's what I hate. Luckly we don't do much old crawel space work. We do more atic work. I guess it's too hot for the spiders there.

Are spiders an occupational hazard? How can you protect an employee from this hazard?

Maybe you can think how often and when you come across the little creachers. Talk to the applicant and say it's a deciding factor in getting and keeping the job. Same goes with the small spaces. Describe what she is expected to do.

She might not know what to expect in an attic and imagine pictures like a horror movie. She might also be too honest for her own good. Some guys will say thay can do all and am affraid of nothing. But it's not the case.

When I first started out they would ask if I was affraid of hights. I was thinking of 50' or more high like a steel worker not 20'. That might of cost me a few possabilities.

One other note. On ocassion I had my wife help out when someone did not show up. Different customers would say "you made that poor woman work so hard". I was not pushing her. She just works hard. But I might of lost work because of it. I never herd someone say that the guys are working too hard. As emploiers we can't discriminate, should expect the same, pay the same, etc.. The trouble is customes still discriminate.

Tom

I worked with a female electrician that would outwork any man in our shop.

On the other hand, if you don't like tight spaces and spiders, will you be able to work in an attic or a crawlsapce?

Where women i agree might try and work harder than any man,here in canada their is no way that a women could outwork your average man.

Remember, Indiana Jones was pretty tough, but he hated snakes.

The gender issue is a seperate one from the physical demands of the trade. The job might demand going into crawlspaces or attics, and the apprentice should know that up front. Same thing with heights. Proper safety messures should minimize the dangers involved in this work.

I don't want to get stung by bees, so I would have a can of hornet spray on the service truck if I was working on outside cabinets, changing lamps, etc. Where there are poisonous insects or animals, use caution.

The construction environment can be an unpleasant place for a woman. It shouldn't be, but that's reality. Job trailers often have pin-ups hanging up; job-toilets are often littered with profane graffiti and they are also very unpleasant for anyone to use, especially a woman.

Federal regulations (here in the US) dictate that a job environment shouldn't be "hostile" or make a person feel threatened sexually. Still, I feel most construction sites are somewhat threatening to a woman. That's just the sad reality, the nature of the collective ignorance of male construction workers.

All of these things should be taken into account by a prospective apprentice.

Our IBEW local takes in female apprentices. Some don't make it through the program, but some become good mechanics.

Another point i would like to make is that here in Canada it is legal for women to go topless,which would make it difficult for the guys to work with on a hot day if they chose to go that way which on hot days we do at times.

I think here in the US, OSHA regs prohibit both men and women from going topless on a construction site.

I have run into the same thing that Tom stated. I usually do jobs with my son as helper but on the few occasions that he couldn't make it, I took my wife instead. I get some funny looks and reactions to her. Like "You shouldn't work her so hard, she's sweating." or "I would never make a woman dig a trench." It's funny, these people would rather have her terminate circuits not knowing what she's doing rather then have her do something where she might get dirty.

I don't see sex as a problem in itself here. It may be true that on average men are physically stronger than women, but let's face it, taken on an individual basis there are huge variations in both sexes.

Give me a shovel and leave me to dig a 30 ft. long 2 ft. deep trench and I can assure you that I would consider that hard labor, and there are undoubtedly some women who could outdig me on such a task.

I think the claustrophobia and creepy-crawly angle is probably a bigger concern. Crawling through old attics one can find much less pleasant things than the occasional spider as well (the remains of a rat, its jaws still locked around the cable which had been its last meal comes to mind - Ugh ). Not a problem if your apprentice is only likely be working on installs in new buildings, but that's not likely, right?

As for building sites, I have to agree with the conditions on some of them. I'm sure I cannot be the only male who find some of them extremely offensive.

Can you afford to cut a little slack for a female apprentice, Trumpy? If so, I think you ought to.

On the other hand, I'd feel perfectly justified in *doubting* any kid or female or anyone for that matter, based on age/sex/anything. Maybe she really just wants to mix with the guys. Does she want to *do* electrical work, or *be* an electrician? That's a critical distinction. You can ask her that directly and - because she's female - she'll likely give you a straight answer, like she gave you a straight answer about spiders.

Apart from motive, I believe the main traits of a good electrician are: methodical, and even dogmatic. These are hard to gauge in a phone conversation. Have her follow you out of a room, to see if she turns the light off.

I remember working on a jobsite where we had a female apprentice... She refused to use the porta sh*tters & would drive about a mile away to a fast food joint.... I don't blame her on one side... But on the other, on constuction sites, you don't really have a choice! She might've made it in the service industry though.. But most apprentices dont enter the trade that way

-Randy

No, you guys are quite right.
Everyone has thier own fears, male or female, I've never liked to discriminate on any grounds.
I took this person on, on the idea that she wanted to learn the Trade, no matter what that entails!.
The concept here is, would you ask an Apprentice to do work that you would normally refuse to do?.
To put a name to her, Stacey starts on Monday at my workplace and I will be giving her a Safety Induction Course.
But she is on the Payroll though and we will send her down to the St Johns Ambulance station to be trained as a CPR/First-Aider.
That is standard here!.

It's just nice to see someone that doesn't want to leave school and go to University and become a Lawyer.
Yuck!!!

No... except arrive before starting time with donuts and coffee!

Joking aside, look at the question in another light...

Would your "rabbi" (mentor, first journeyman, dad - whoever kept their eye on you as a budding spark) ask me to do such a task?

Would you ask a non-app to do such a task?

Lugging 10 bundles of stick up three flights? Sure... cuz if they don't, I'll have to anyway, and it's a normal part of the work.

Hauling cases of 500' wire spools? Yep.

Bust all day behind a hammer drill on your knees mounting 30 1900 boxes in a basement? Uh huh.

Pull a few hundred feet of fish tape and wire through raceways. Of course.

Wallow face first in a drain ditch chasing an imaginary UF cable? Probably not, unless they were being a real PITA.

I don't think it's out of line to have your apprentice (obviously, once they develop the skillset) do all your "menial / grunt" work - especially if you're the one who's got to read the plans, plot your runs, you know, journeyman / master level work.

Other than the occasional "one of the boys" prank (no lasting scars, no workman's comp-worth claims), I'd keep the work steady, the expected results known, and the feedback honest.

Trumpy,

What happened with Stacey? How did it turn out. Any problems with customers or other guys on a job? Was she doing the the grunt work like carring wire, pipe, drilling, and digging? Is she still with you?

Tom

We had a female apprentice a few years ago.She looked more like a guy with long hair. She got into the apprenticeship and was next on the list to be hired.
She decided to quit after digging her first splice pit.3' + 3' + 3' .
She thought it was all sitting on a bar stool in front of a panelboard hooking up circuits.
I heard she became a gold digger.

A few years back I had an interesting situation. A female JW (well endowed) would come to the job sites in a "T" shirt w/o bra. Several of the guys called in to complain that she was a safety hazard. Not wanting to open my company up for a lawsuit, I contacted OSHA and an inspector visited the job and issued a ciation to the company. That was enough to pre-empt a lawsuit. She quit and was hired by another company. Don't know after that.
Rowdy

I had one employee that was afraid of heights and afraid of crawl spaces. (He also stuttered) but he was the nicest guy you could want to work with. I use to kid with him by saying, "You don't want to work in high places. Plus you don't want to work in crawl spaces." (Plus he too was afraid of snakes.) I asked him, "What do you want to do? Work in the middle section? That is where the foreman gets to do the work". Time has passed and he got his own license and now he has 4-5 guys working for him. These guys will climb up high and go into crawl spaces, but my old helper still won't.

As always it depends on the individual, mle or female. If I were hiring anyone and they brought up their concerns about spiders, I would comment that if the area were to have poisoness spiders we would of course have a pest control company take care of the problem before we begin work. But for the most part common house spiders are not a safety issue and are just as afraid of us as we are of them. Being afraid is a good thing, and learning to overcome your fear by developing an educated respect for dangerous conditions is one of the things that make you a professional. If your fears become irrational then they can take control of your thought process and the ability to reason effectively and that can become a danger to you or those around you. In the electrical buisness there are many other dangers that are not as obvious as spiders. Unless you are willing to work to understand the hazards involved in the occupation and how to avoid them then you should consider carfully before you accept employment in the electrical field.
Male or female I would not discriminate, some people are better at tasks and some are better at others...I have worked with women that could run rigid as well as the best men

Tom,
Funny you should ask, I was talking to Stacey on the phone yesterday.
She is finishing her Apprenticeship off with an Electrical firm in Christchurch (100km North of here).
She still enjoys the work and is being taught well by the sounds of things.
One more person to be rubbed up the wrong way by my old Boss.