I have taken some advice from this forum into practice, and now I try and pretwist all my solid conductor connections before putting the wirenuts on. My particular problem I'm having, is that most times, several wires twist beautifully, around a single, straight conductor. I redo it once or twice untill it's right. I want it perfect the first time! Tell me how, thanx! Brian.

As you twist, pull away toward the ends with the linesmans. I don't pretwist unless its over 3 wires. Channel Lock makes a pair of linesmans with a hooked end on one of the handles which keeps them from slipping out of your hand when you're pulling outward on those pre twists. It also works great for pushing #12's into the back of the box. Plus they're lighter than Kliens, and they're spring loaded. I love Klien but it seems like the only thing I ever used my linesmans for was a hammer.

Part of the trade - live with it

I've been trying 'pre-taping' rather than pre-twisting.

Wire-nuts work just fine without pre-twisting....provided that the spring grabs onto the wire and squeezes the entire bunch together. It is that final provision that bites ya on the bum sometimes.

With pre-twisting, either you have something less than one twist, which would just barely hold the wires together, and really only serves to prevent them slipping past each other as the wire-nut is applied, or you have several twists. In the latter case, you can get to the point where the twisting itself serves to hold the wires together and make the splice, but then you have the wires pretty stressed in a very tight spiral in order for the several twists to fit inside the wire nut.

What I am trying out is taking the stripped wires, holding them together, and then taping the bunch about an inch down from the stripped section. This holds the wires neatly together in parallel, perfect for the wire-nut to grab.

I saw the taping suggestion here, where someone suggested it for stranded wires so that they don't all spring apart when the wire-nut is removed. They were putting the loop of tape on _after_ the splice was made, and they weren't doing the classic DIY 'tape the wirenut' trick, but instead were taping the _wires_ a bit down from the wire-nut. I took this and decided to see where it would go with the 'pretaping'.

-Jon

1 believe all solid wire connections should be twisted first,to prevent the separation of the conductors given a bad wirenut leading way to arcing with a chance for a potential fire.

That one straight wire can pull out. As you're twisting the group of wires, when you're halfway done, check the wires for any straight ones, then use your linemans pliers to grab some of the wires along with the straight one, twist that group some to get the straight one to start twisting, then grab all of them again and continue the twist and finish. The whole twist will stay uniform without any protrusions and will go in the wire nut like normal.

One other danger from not twisting your wires is that when you're removing a wire nut, the tightest, shortest wire can pull out of the wire nut suddenly as you're loosening it and arc on the box, etc.

I know good electricians who come from residential where they had to go fast to compete and they jam a bunch of straight wires under a wire nut, but to be honest with you, I look at them as careless, lazy, unsafe and selfish when they use wire nuts that way. They just want to get done quick and don't care about the next guy, safety or doing a quality job. Just my opinion.

In my opinion your wasting your time "pre twisting" If you put a wire nut on correctly you shouldnt have to "pretwist"

So make sure you pretwist and its ground up I usually strip the wires a few inches, start out mostly flat, all conductors parallel, grab the bunch, twist and cut off the rest, but why don't we just solder and tape, I am sure the 40 watt iron will heat up 4 #12 in an 8 hour day...

I can't see how a splice can be tight if you don't pretwist it. All my splices are good and tight and stay together with out the wire nut. I tape them 3-4 inches from the splice to be sure.
I have had more splices fall apart when opening a j box and it's due to not pretwisting.

*ducks head in shame* I'm sorry that I mentioned a technique that doesn't involve pre-twisting in this thread. I forgot how quickly thing degrade into ' you should pre-twist' vs 'you shouldn't pre-twist'. I'd like to request that the discussion remain on _how_ to best pretwist.

IMHO a pre-twist done poorly is like an over-torqued lug: harder work for poorer results. If, in pre-twisting you overstrain the conductors at the beginning of the twist, then you could end up with the situation where the wire itself breaks just before the splice. Similarly I can see problems if the conductors get scraped up during the pre-twisting. With two wires, I can see getting several twists in the proper insulation length for a wire-nut, but with 4 or 5 conductors I can't see twisting the wires tight enough for them to hold together in a length short enough to fit in the wire-nut. But I am speaking from the point of view of someone who _doesn't_ pre-twist.

For them as do pre-twist, what techniques do you use? Do you pre-twist _all_ splices, or do you use a different technique for splices with more conductors. Does it make a difference if the wire is 14,12 or 10 gauge? Does the 'pre-twisting' extend down into the insulated section, and if so, how far? How do you inspect your splices after the fact?

-Jon

if you've ever taken a wire nut apart and had it spring open when its still got voltage then you know you should pre-twist the wires. twist the wires together and cut the end squaRE, IF YOUR ADDING STRANDED WIRE TO IT DONT TWIST IN THE STRANDED BUT LET THE END OF THE STRANDS SLIGHTLY LEAD THE ENDS OF THE SOLID WIRE. HOPE THIS HELPS.

I must be an idiot for jumping in on this but here I go.

None of the wirenut manufacturers say:

No twisting necessary

What they do say is:

No pretwisting necessary



Notice instruction 5, "Screw on until two twists are visible."

If you have two twists visible outside the wirenut the wires inside are twisted, try it before you say no.

Personally I think it is easer to pretwist than it is to twist on the wire nut that far, but it can be done and make a good splice.

Pretwist or Posttwist either way no one should be leaving the wires untwisted.

As far as wires popping out when you remove a wirenut you should not be working on hot circuits in the first place.

Take a look at instruction one

"1. Turn off power before installing or removing connectors"

Do not blame someone else for your choice to work unsafely.

Bob





[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 04-24-2004).]

"As far as wires popping out when you remove a wirenut you should not be working on hot circuits in the first place.
Take a look at instruction one
"1. Turn off power before installing or removing connectors"
Do not blame someone else for your choice to work unsafely"

Next time read my post, where did I say anything about removing a wirenut? I am talking about wires coming apart when you move a conductor thats in a j box or a can. This is typically the result of using a wire nut with out pretwisting.
As far as working on live power, it is part of the trade.

[This message has been edited by Joey D (edited 04-24-2004).]

Joey D, or anyone, if you want to quote a post, it can be done easy follow this link.
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/ubbcode.html

As for as working on live power, no employer can make you do that, if you decide on your own to go ahead and do so, you and you alone are responsible for what goes wrong no matter what the reason.

You will also be bringing your company or employer a world of trouble too.

Bob

When it comes to making connections, workmanship is the most important item. No method or material can overcome poor workmanship.

I've seen failures in twisted connections & untwisted connections & they seem to come from poor workmanship, not a failure of the wirenut.

IMO, there is no practical difference in the performance of the splice, regardless of the method, when the connection is properly made.

If the twisting of conductors made for a much safer splice, I think that by now, the NEC would have adopted it as a requirement.

Tom

are you telling me you never work anything hot? i find it hard to believe. some larger jobs the ones with 70 years of wiring dont lend themselves to shutting off a circuit when each floor has some 20 odd panels and no way of finding a circuit with out say shutting down an irs computer or power to other equipment. the buildings im refering to are huge not just the occational tenant fit up your probably more familiar with bob.

Tom

I think that says it all.


Rizer I work in all kinds of buildings is a 45 acre building big?

Many times I work in Data centers, try telling them you have to shut off circuits.

I did not say I have never worked hot, what I was getting at is no one should be blaming a bad splice for damage that occurs because they have decided to use a short cut and work hot.

Get a decent circuit tracer and you can find the circuit and shut it off.

Bob

Oh, the old pretwist or not story should i bring the wagos into game again ;D

iwire, Do you shut down a can or j box before opening the cover to do anything in there? I don't lay blame unless it needs to be. If you were to open a cover only to have a wire nut fall out, you would say, I don't blame the hack in there before me saving 10 seconds a splice to make more money, thats completely my fault? I doubt it unless you were the person that did it.

Not to beat this thing into the ground but 9 times out of 10 not pretwisting a splice will cause issue's due to improper method caused by the installer. I like to pretwist and some don't I work on live power, some don't. I guess I like to hold myself accountable for what the next guy sees in any of my work.

Well than we are the same, I like to hold myself responsible for what happens.

I refuse to lay blame on the person before me if everything was working until I started working on it.

Joey I do not want to beat this to death either but we should not be giving people new to the trade that working live is required or the right thing to do.


The company I work for strives to follow the OSHA regulations and reminds us regally that we are subject to termination if we are working live.

Does that get broken sometimes? Yes I will not lie to you.

You are aware there are very few reasons that OSHA regulations will let you be exposed to live parts?

Open a live panel without PPE and you are in violation, yes I do this and I can get fired for it.

Bob

Is opening a j box or can a violation? Technically the wires and wirenuts are not live exposed parts so it should be OK. This is what I am refering to.

I like your thinking, I have thought about the same thing.

Technically IMO you are correct, however OSHA inspectors are typically going to fine first ask questions later.

Have a great (and safe) week.

Bob

iwire, the building im refering to wasbuilt in 1927, part 1 and 2 of the renovation took 4 years. much of the rest of the 6 part job was still occupied by gover. employees. there are endless circuits and endless associated panels the crossovers are numerous from one part of the building to another. you werent there so you cant convince me that a circuit tracer and 10 hours labor with a circuit tracer with a choice of 10 or more panels located in multiple panel rooms (and possibly from floor to floor is not an option. the floors are terrazo and the walls are terracotta with plaster.

So rizer what is it you are telling me?

That it is good to work live?

That if something is inconvenient you can forget about safety rules?

If you are in charge of any employees and are telling them they have to work live you are really behind the times.

Have you taken any OSHA classes or electrical safety courses?

iwire. what im saying is that there are certain instances where it is unavoidable thats all. i have6 juice filling lines putting out 1000 cartons a minute . line 2 is being demoed while the other 5 lines are to remain operationsl. the cp for this area contains some 500 wires 4 of which are 120v contrl pwr for some of line 2. the 4 2amp fuses feeding these crts are fed to multiple terminal blocks deriving there power from the same breaker. do i carefully unscew the term, blk and remove the fed im after or do i schedual a shut down of carton filling to remove 4 control power circuits. time is money and as an electrician the job carries with it inherant risks which are sometimes un avoidable. i follow ppe and osha rules 99.9% of the time but the.01 in this trade is part of the job.

Wow. All I wanted to know was how better to achieve my goal. to get a better pre-twist. What a can of worms. That being said, I have found alot better success after trying some of these methods to get all the conductors to twist at the same time. Thanx, Brian

... Ok, I'll jump in here,...if I have to splice,say..4 or 5 solid/stranded #12's,I strip a good inch or so off,then I'll hand twist 2 conductors to get the "spiral" going, then add each additional conductor,one at a time,watching the "shoulder" carefully so that all the wire's insulation is even,then twist with linesmans..it usually works nicely,and I cut off the excess squarely,and put on my wire nut..I find this ensures a good bond,and the spiral is usually continuous..
...And yes,I do work live if I have to,I was trained to do so,although I instruct my guys to work dead if possible..it's not only a safety issue,but an economic one as well,they will work more quickly,and efficiently if they're not preoccupied with working live..
Russ

[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 04-26-2004).]

Sorry, I know we're all over the place on this thread, but as to working live saving time and money: rizer, I don't doubt your knowlege and skill, but I think your example on the production line is good one to throw some scenarios where that could back fire on someone. An accidental short (besides the obvious potential for burns, loss of eyesite from moltent metal etc.) can cost more than a scheduled shut down. Sometimes unscheduled shutdowns are more expensive, especially if the line requires an orderly shutdown. I was told of an AL rolling mill in this area that burned to the ground not too long ago because of a 277 lighting circuit that shorted to ground when an electrician was screwing a 1900 blank back on. Well it turned out that the ground fault detector on the main service was never calibrated correctly, shutting the who building down. One particular part of the line required an orderly shutdown, and that's what sent the whole building ablaze.

Obviously there are many screw-ups that contributed to the tragedy, not to say killing the circuit, pinching the wire and then turning it on into a ground fault would have had any other result. Just realize (and I am not saying this directly to you rizer) than when we think we are saving money, we're really just throwing dice. Even though the dice normally do come up in our favor and it does save money, there is that once in a [blank]-(hundred, thousand, million??) that it could cost dearly.

jps, i knew when i wrote saving money i would regret it. we wear safety glasses 100% of the time and were a face shield when working hot (as well as gloves, rubber mat). as i said this was a 2 amp fuse, and yes im aware how much amperage it takes to stop your heart for those of you about to jump on the " 2 amp"line. i dont condone or suggest others work circuits live. as far as the 1900 cover: wow, huh? but i fail to see what the point is: working a live circuit vs. a gr fault set incorrectly? i guess we should send every one home accept the maintenance crew that would have to bring back up the 5 filling lines at 3 hours each and the lye-out crew huh! you really think there going to send 40 odd people home for this. remember 2 amp fuse. this plant has been making juice for some 40 years the number of wires is into the millions and unfortunately its not always possible to determine what wires go where. the specs are set in stone about labling and prints being up to date but not all formen are consciencious enough to do there job correctly. i apologize for digressing on this issue and the original question, this will be my last post .

OK Rizer your right.

Pre-Twister myself, but from 20 years experience, I have have been on
several calls where loose connections have caused faults, loss of power, wires to come out while trouble shooting in a device box, etc. & all were situations where the wires were NOT pretwisted.
I consider it the same situation as using the "Back Stab" method for installing devices...the continuation of the circuit should not depend on a device.
Pretwist, & cap with a wire nut, & you'll never go wrong!
Quicker yes, but never better.

Do I have to follow the instructions on the wirenut bag in order to maintain the UL listing of the nut? If I use a method that differs from the printed instructions, doesn't that void the items listing? If not, then why not?

It seems that a good percentage of the questions asked on these forums receives an answer resembling "follow the supplied instructions for a proper installation". Why are wirenuts not treated the same?

I always pre-twist solid conductors with a linesman’s. However, since I have yet to find a single wirenut package that describes using the solid-conductor pre-twist method, I just assumed I was voiding the UL listing. Pre-twisting worked so well I didn't care if it was wrong!

So why are wirenuts different than most (every?) other listed device? Why am I allowed to disregard the supplied instructions and make up my own method?

iwire may have already said somewhere, but the instructions don't tell you "do not pretwist". there is a difference between "no pretwisting required" and "no pretwisting allowed"

Here's what I do:

#14- generally I don't pretwist

#12- more than 2 I pretwist

A perfectly good connection can be made with either method. As Bob and others have pointed out, you must follow the manufacturers instructions exactly. They have vigorously tested their product and they know how it should be applied.
That means stripping the wires the right length and twisting the connector until 2 twists become visible, and using the proper wire combinations for which the connector is rated.

If you have a splice spring apart when you take the wire nut off, then the splice was made wrong, plain and simple. I have never had a properly made non-pretwisted splice that I made spring apart afterward. (I've had to take a bunch apart to add or remove wires later on.)

Peter

Jps1006, that is a slippery slope. “If the instructions don’t say you can not do it, then it is fine”. Can you imagine applying that mentality to all listed devices? I didn’t think an electrician was allowed to use any method he or she desired as long as nobody told them not to! If the UL approved instructions only list one method, then who am I to dream up another. Even when the installation instructions state that a certain step “is not necessary” that is not the same as saying the step is acceptable. It may be ok with the UL and it may not be. I didn’t think we where allowed to read between the lines.

Again, I want to make clear that I pre-twist. I just find it odd that all the normal nay-sayers to disregarding/modifying the supplied instructions always change their tune when the wirenut issue is discussed. Perhaps they don’t want to admit they are not totally compliant to UL!



[This message has been edited by triple (edited 05-01-2004).]

You're right, it is getting a little slippery. I personally would not make assumptions that if the instruction are totally silent about a particular step or method in an installation that it was open season for what ever I see fit or however I've been doing it for the last "xx" years. The only reason I would argue that there are lines to read between when it comes to pretwisting is that the instuctions bring it up and use passive language about it. It is a line in the instructions that one needs to stop ask oneself, "what does this mean?"

I too used to be a hardline pretwister, but now I just mostly pretwist. As iwire metioned somewhere else (referencing iwire again. he's got useful stuff) sometimes it is easier to pretwist with a tool than do all that twisting with the nut.

How would one find out exactly what was included in the listing so one wouldn't have to make assumptions?