Hello: I have a situation I would like your feedback on. We are doing a 25,000 square foot, 2 story building. We have 90 "data outlets" scattered through the building. The original bid drawings defined a data outlet as: 2 strands of fiber, 1 Cat. 5e cable, 1 duplex utility receptacle and 1 duplex UPS fed receptacle. The fiber and data cables go back to the server room, to adjacent patch panels. The owner wants to change the data outlet to be 3 Cat. 6 cables in place of the 1 Cat. 5e. So, essentially, 2 more cables to each location. I just received the contractor's quote and here is the problem. The contractor has quoted 15,000 feet of cable for each run, thats a little high but ok. The labor is 120 hours. He has quoted all 3 Cat. 6 runs individually for a total of 360 hours, with a 120 hour credit for the Cat. 5e that was deleted, for a total of 240 hours additional labor. My question is this: since he is already pulling cable to the same location, why the full labor charge for each cable? He will be able to pull them all together, at the same time. My opinion is that there should be no, or very little, extra labor charge. I understand he has more cables to terminate and test, but that is quoted separately, and I don't argue with that. Any ideas on how to get them to be more reasonable? Or - do you think their numbers are correct? How much extra labor would be reasonable?
thanks for your input.

Well, you put us in a pickle. We do not know the ins and out of the job. It may be that he is attempting to make up for a low bid to begin with, or trying to pad the profit like you suggest. Or, it may be that he feels the labor cost really need to be that high. Aren't you getting other bids? Can you reject his bid and ask for new? Is it a problem of time? Extras are sometimes counted on to make a profit, as the job is bid with little or no profit. Ask the contractor about his bid, maybe he will explain, or maybe he will come down some. Usually, if you are open and honest with someone they will be the same with you.

Earl

Thanks for the reply.
Job was bid last August. This contractor won the bid. Bringing in other contractors would cause too many problems. As far as bidding the job low, that is not my problem, and I dont think it's right, or fair to the owner, to charge 3 times the labor for this. I am willing to "play ball", but I think this is too much. We have a meeting scheduled for next week to go over the quote. Perhaps he is right, and has facts to back it up. The big question here is: if 120 hours labor is correct for one cat. 6 cable, is 360 right for three cat. 6 cables?
One side note here: this contractor uses estimating software that prices all his work. That is how he arrived at his labor number. But his software has no adjustments for this kind of combining of the work. This is what his program spit out, so that's what his price is.
Bob

Is he terminating the cables? Is he testing them?

I would pull all three at once but it may not be possible.

not necessarily. It will definatly be more time in handling material, setting up for each pull, identifying and keeping track of cables. The pull itself should take a little longer, how much longer is the $64,000 question (maybe literally). Handling more at once always take more. Plus it is more to verify and be responsible for.

I don't price this type of work too often, but when I did, it was by the opening, so it would have come out the same way. If (1) data jack was $125, then (3) would be $375.

In my opinion (which based completely on speculation and heresay) the work is worth at least twice as much. Your contractor may have reasons to justify the additional third as much. Or maybe he just doesn't know any other way to figure it than what the software says.

the only other suggestion would be to consider time and material.

good luck

Installations are priced per run. If one run costs x then 3 runs cost 3x. Doesn't matter if they can be pulled all at once or not. We often are able to pull many runs at once but that is at our descretion and we are certainly not going to give a credit if that is the case.

It came up at a job meeting the other day that the Data contractor is getting $400.00 per outlet, three Cat 5e per outlet.

I do not know how they arrived at that price.

Our cost per run starts at $100 and goes up from there if it is difficult, involves fishing or raceway etc. This includes the jack, termination and testing less the patch panel cost. Sometimes the customer opts not to use a patch panel and we just press a RJ-45 plug on the end of each run.

I would say that $400 for three runs is right in the ballpark.

-Hal

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 02-22-2004).]

This came up in a job meeting when the client on the job saw my extra ($4,000.00) for providing about 20 more locations for Voice Data and Power.

My part is a 3/4" EMT drop and box along with a power outlet beside it.

The client realized along with my bill he would be paying the cabling contractor $400 for each added location. ($8,000.00)

A IT guy authorized the work with out running through the construction PM.

I think IT guy is now job hunting.

I like the "unit pricing" method that jps1006 mentioned. At least that way, everyone knows upfront what the cost will be, no room for bickering.
iwire, my situation is close to yours. Owner saw the quote, upwards of $50,000.00, and hit the ceiling. As owner's rep, my mandate is to pick apart the estimate and get the price down (Not my favorite part of my job).

another reason for contractors to hate engineers

..I like the "unit pricing" method

Isn't that what you got? Priced per run. Oh, you want it priced per opening because it suits you.

What happens when we get openings that are back to back or a number of openings that are grouped together and a large number of cables can be pulled at once? Are we supposed to "discount" the labor there too?

...this contractor uses estimating software that prices all his work. That is how he arrived at his labor number. But his software has no adjustments for this kind of combining of the work.

Right because that's how it is done, per run. There is no adjustment for your complaint nor is there one for the conditions I just described.

What this really boils down to is apparently your employer was happy with the figure originally quoted until this change exposed the pricing method. In actuality then you should also be seeking a adjustment in the original price for all the "duplicate labor charges" if you feel you are entitled to a discount here.

If you want a firm price up front this is how it's done- per run. If you want the actual costs then it's time and material and I'll bet T&M will cost you more.

hbiss - i see i touched a nerve. what we got was a bid on the entire building installation - power, data, security - everything. let me ask a question. when the contractor sets his bid price, doesn't he take things like this into account to enable him to get the lowest bid? So why can't we ask for the same consideration? "We think we see a way to save some money, what do you think" - that sort of thing. is there NO room for negotiation here?

Seeks,
you would have to discuss this with the contractor to see if there is ANY room for negotiation.
Keep in mind, your point of view is that there are multiple runs that can be done at the same time as others, BUT, do you know the added effects of this?
It can be much more difficult to manage 5 spools of wire than 3. All it takes is one spool to keep rolling and it's down the ladder you go.
We price at $100 per line. 2=$200, 4=$400, and so on. There is no break when doing multiple runs.
It also appears that he gave a full credit for the changed items.
Todd

The computer estimating program I use works the same way in either getting a base bid or a change order. It basically has a price based on the average time to install an outlet with an average length of a conduit and wire run. Like all averages some runs are longer and some are shorter, but all assemblies will have the same components (e.g. a box, wiring device, mud ring, and cover plate).
It sounds to me like you got what you asked for.
Extras and change orders on jobs that are caused by owners or designers who change thier minds after a contract is awarded need to ask themselves why they did not make that change before bid day. They are always percieved as expensive.
Good luck.

A couple of points regarding the Data Cabling.

When quoting material for Data we quote full boxes (1000 feet) there for you looking at the cable length may be unjustified, by the way you can ask for the leftovers. they have been paid for.

There is more labour involved in running CAT6 over CAT 5e and there is a greater risk to the contractor when installing. he might run into problems with cables during installation and fail tests. This risk burden will show up in his labour hours.

Also they cannot be pulled at same time as other systems, set-up and work metdods are not the same.

When we remodeled our office building the LAN installers charged $90 a cable. Did not matter if you had 1 or 10 going from point a to point b. We had several bids and all of them were the same. X$ for each cable!

...So why can't we ask for the same consideration? "We think we see a way to save some money, what do you think" - that sort of thing. is there NO room for negotiation here?

No, not in my mind.

He was awarded the contract fair and square then you changed the requirements. You asked for the net cost for the changes and you don't like them. These costs were calculated using the same method used to determine the original cost. Now you want him to negotiate. Why should he? It's like telling the lowest bidder "you are the lowest but you will have to do better".

Sounds like you know you have this guy over a barrel and are using this opportunity to get a better price.