Cleaning out old,old files and some of the items brought back memories. Are any of these systems still in use?

In about 1976, DC in buildings in downtown St. Louis.
1963-Two phase three wire in NYC.
1955-Six phase double delta in Nashville, TN.
Still have a lot of files to read before disposal.
Rowdy

I'm always interested in old systems and the way things developed.

Is there anything in these files worth scanning and posting on ECN for posterity?

I second Paul's appeal.
Please save them, maybe scan and archive them (I know I'm asking for a lot).
I wish I'd taken pics or kept records of all the things I've run across.
As I said at a friend's eulogy, "If I was to tell you the truth, you'd think I was lying, or crazy."...S

I had an apartment in Westchester County NY that had 120V/208V (2 of 3 phases). More recently I had another apartment (which was fairly new) also fed by 120V/208V (2 of 3 phases). It took a while for me to figure out why my experimental radios run off of 250V were underperforming until I measured line to line.
See http://home.netcom.com/~wa2ise/radios/aa5240v.html

'ise — A 1N4007 along side a 35W4? That's downright dastardly. {But absolutely brilliant!)




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 11-11-2003).]

wa2ise

What you had was single phase (two phases of a 3 phase system), not a two phase system.

I believe rowdyrudy is talking about an old system called two phase.

We still install 208/120 3 phase services in multi unit dwellings and feed the units "single phase", Two hots, neutral and ground.

I have never run across anything but single or three phase systems.

If you have two hots and a neutral of a three phase system, then you do have two separate phases available.

A load connected between any two conductors of a three phase system sees a single phase, but as soon as you have three conductors (any three, including the possibility of two hots and the neutral) then you have different available circuits with different phase angles available.

You are correct, though, that this is different from the 'two phase' systems that were used in the past. In a 'two phase' system you have two separate circuits where the phasing difference is 90 degrees rather than the 120 degrees found in 3 phase systems.

Thread hijack going to new odd systems: EPRI has done research on using 12 and 18 phase systems for power transmission. For a given phase to neutral voltage, the phase to phase voltage goes down as the number of phases goes up. (I can give you the math, but imagine a circle. The radius of the circle is proportional to the phase to neutral voltage. Now draw a set of equally spaced dots around the circle, one for each phase. The distance between the dots represents the phase to phase voltage.) Because the phase to phase voltage goes down, the required phase to phase spacing goes down. The spacing from the conductors to the tower and ground remains the same, but you can pack more conductors into the same right of way, and thus carry more total power.

-Jon

P.S. I second the call to scanning in some files on the old systems. It's really great to see where modern systems come from.

-Jon

Winnie,

Are you sure the two phase system is 90 degrees different and not 180? Not that I know...just asking.

The two phase system is indeed 90 degrees. It was essentially two single phase systems mounted 90 degrees apart. Not very useful apart from starting motors.

But only half as dastardly as a pair of back-to-back zener diodes across a pilot lamp -- Thereby ensuring that it doesn't become too brilliant!

My dad remembers 32VDC wiring communties in Saskatchewan, Canada. Next time he calls to ask for money, I will ask him for more details.

Most of the info is from notes and correspondence. That is why I said it brought back memories.
The DC in St. Louis was supplied by Union Electric (POCO) to several older buildings for elevators.
The 2 phase was in a school in Manhattan. I recall that the neutral was much larger than the phase lines and that was due to the neutral carrying the sum of the phase lines, not the unbalance. Trying to adapt 3 phase equipment was tough.
The 6 phase double delta was for the Cline-Westinghouse rotary press drive system. In order to get 550 DC there were phase shift xformers, large banks of silicon rectifiers, and 6 ignitron tube rectifiers (water cooled no less) for each of 2 systems, and misc other parts. Amplidyne sets were utilized for control integration. Each of the rotary newspaper presses had a 50HP motor and I seem to recall that 75,000 papers per hour could be produced by each system. I was called in due to arc-overs on the ignitrons. It turned out that the water cooling the ignitrons was flowing too fast and was too cold. Sometimes trouble shooting has interesting results.
Rowdy

I also would like to get some of the scanned documents to post here!

Oh, and ya - the ø displacement on the 2Ø System is 90°...
L1 & L3 = ØA,
L2 & L4 = ØB

Adding my $0.02

Scott35

the 32V systems were used in rural areas with local (as in per property) generators and storage batteries. The towns may have been
32V with neigbourhood generator systems, but I suppose more probably 110V.

They were called Delcos, for a popular brand of the system.

I've seen a reference to 32V being the lowest voltage which is on record as having proved lethal.

It seems likely that this fatality was caused by one of these rural systems -- Maybe to someone who was up to his neck in mud and water?