From an informed DIY'er, a question for the pro's regarding the use of push-in connections on receptacles compared to screw terminals. I personally never use them ( push-ins), I don't trust them, and I can't be sure of a solid connection, visually. Should I continue to avoid them, or is it a personal thing?

I'd say 99% of electricians don't back-plug. The other 1% are in tight competitive markets and are hoping the connections last the mandatory one-year warranty. Then it's a service call. I worked for an outfit once that gave me that very excuse, almost verbatim. I didn't work for them long.

Loose wires cause fires...

However, back wired receptacles are OK (and preferred by some) which differ by having the screw tighten the clamp rather than a spring. These are common in GFCI receptacles.

Thanks for the quick reply...I figured as much. As for the GFCI's, I've found that with many manufacturers, that's the only termination they provide.(back-wire) I really like those-a positive, tight connection.Incidentally, does anyone out there know if the NEC code re AFCI's will (or is) be applicable in Canada?
BTW, I am in Toronto.

[This message has been edited by mickky (edited 07-28-2001).]

Let me admit I might, occasionally, "push-in" a switch to control a lower wattage fixture(s) on a switch loop, or if I'm jumping to a second switch in the same box. They are UL listed as such. Sorry!

mickky,

Welcome!
We have several very knowledgable people that are familliar with the Canadian Codes. If you have anything specific code-wise for Canada you should post it there and they will see it.


Bill

Redsy, I only use pushin connections when I have two line outs on recepticles. To me its much cleaner than a pigtail. Tell you the truth though I've never had a recall on any pushin I've done. But have seen others fail.

When I use pushins I always give a little tug to make sure of a good connection.

As far as GFI's the munufacturers have got a good thing going in my opinion, I like the screw down clamps they are using.

Just say NO to push in connections! They will fail when heavily loaded.

GJ

Resistor,
Are you saying that you don't pigtail??

GJ

I'm not a fan of push-ins, but if they are that bad, how do they get listed? Arent they rigidly tested within their rating?

I've installed outdoor lamps (pedestal type) that had no box containing a splice in a teakwood frame, a typical porcelain keyless screwed to the wood, and this was a 120V light, 100W. The bulb was within 6" of the teakwood lid... No heat insulator of any kind... It was UL listed. They were very pretty when the lid was closed, however...

I'll only install UL listed devices, (that are listed for the purpose)... but I won't fall for the idea that UL equals OK...

Besides... the 1875W hair dryers with 15A plugs are UL listed... Need I say more?

It was UL listed. They were very pretty when the lid was closed, however...

I'll only install UL listed devices, (that are listed for the purpose)... but I won't fall for the idea that UL equals OK...

Besides... the 1875W hair dryers with 15A plugs are UL listed... Need I say more?
[/B][/QUOTE]

You mean that they carry a UL label. There are a lot of import knockoffs out there carrying bogus UL labels. I worked in the import business for awhile, and it's common place for a Chinese factory to copy a product exactly, right down to the counterfeit UL label. I even saw a coworker take a FCC type approval number and have it put on cheap knock off telephones so that they could be imported.

BTW I back wire 15 amp general purpose outlets in residential settings. Yes I am in one of those tight competitive markets. Time is indeed money here.

Incidentally I have never seen one fail, or at least never identified the push in as the problem. I have taken many old ones out, to change the color or because the plastic by the ground chipped off and they are a pain to get off. I like to use a romex staple and release the wire, rather than cut them as most old work has really short wires in there.

Oooooo---Kkkkaaaayyyy...

Guess I'll start backplugging then...

And I'll just finger tighten wire nuts instead of "wrenching" them...

And stop running EGC's in conduit...

And only have one circuit for all the bathrooms in a house...

And stop using antioxidant...

And no antishort bushings on AC either...(or was that MC that didn't require them?)

Oh yeah, and a sconce light in a shower space with a switch next to the tub to control it...

Let's see, what else can I get away with that common sense tells me otherwise?

Hey it's legal!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-31-2001).]

The whole purpose of this forum is to become better electricians. If we learn of a better way to do something, that's good. If, however we become subject to ridicule and sarcasm, it becomes difficult to ask questions or answer opinion polls honestly, our community loses. It is humbling to ask questions of our peers, however, we all have something to learn from each other.

BTW, I will probably continue to push-in low wattage switch loops. But I will think twice about a sconce in the shower. :P

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 07-31-2001).]

(I think 1875 W @ 125 V nameplate just passes muster for 15 A.)

Backstabbing takes less volume in the box and when that matters, I also occasionally backstab the line in light switches only when daisychaining. If I ever learn of one going bad, I'm sure I'll give them up altogether. I would really prefer a pre-made octopus (or star without a wirenut) for distributing power to multiple devices in a box.

I have seen a lot of bad backstabs in receptacles. Whether they were originally tight, I cannot say, since they weren't my work. But I don't trust them. My rule with the switches is that if it doesn't bite on the first try, I consider it defective and grab another switch or use the screw and a pigtail instead if I can make it fit.

I like the way the GFCIs connect because no wire bending is needed. However, I think they could do better by fixing one contact in place somehow or spring loading it to open. Sometimes the gap doesn't open correctly to receive the wire.

I also like the way the stripped part of the conductor is protected. I look forward to the day when there are just recessed set screws on the sides like on circuit breakers. Ever wrap your hand around an energized receptacle?

In reply to your "speed wiring the outlets",
I am in favor of them being banned. They should make all recptacles like the Aluminum
wiring device type, which have only screws on the side and thats it, or the kind where you have to tighten the screws onto the wires. I've seen too many go Bad with the push in the back type. As far as speed is concerned how much time are you really saving. Speed may be a small factor, but I would bank on the guy who takes 30 seconds longer and goes around the screws that that is the Professional way to go. I think we have to admire our work, and not think HOW FAST can I do it! Thanks- Steve T.

I was merely trying to make a point...

Pardon if it offended anyone...

My point being that we must use good common sense, that blindly going out and doing things at code minimum for the sake of speed is not professional in my opinion...

There are many examples in code such that I have mentioned that allow for such mediocrity, but I for one will not back-stab, nor any of the other bad habits that I mentioned.

In all fairness I think I've seen as many loose screws on receptacles as loose back-stabs. And I've also seen many "Industrial Grade" Devices that failed because they were poorly installed. I will admit to ocassionally using them also, but not as a rule, and have never seen a problem with any I've done.


Does anyone have any evidence that these are bad news or just hearsay?

Bill

I really would like to wire every residential job like a commercial job, to the highest standards of the trade, but the reality is that home builders do not want to pay for quality. They want it done as cheaply and as quickly as you can legally do it. Quite frankly if someone is not going to pay me for it, I'm not going to do it. I've worked from some pretty competitive union shops, and seen a lot of corners cut.

Now I'm in business for myself and I understand why they do it. Unfortunately this is the state of this trade at here anyway. I'm competing with over 700 licensees in my county as well as every handyman and DIY. If I don't backstab it someone else will.

Go Here and pay special notice to "sparky's" comment...


Anything designed for a 15A receptacle should not draw more than 1440W...i.e. 80% of OCPD and wire ampacity... Are hairdryers exempt?

>Anything designed for a 15A receptacle should not draw more than 1440W...

We had this discussion before and we agreed that they should have twenty amp plugs... and extension cords should not be less than 12 AWG Cu.

There are lots of extensions that turn a 15 A receptacle into three, six, or even seven receptacles. It would be easy to get 20 A on one of those. Amplifiers for a band come to mind.

I have one right here: Computer grade surge suppressor, Input: 115 V, 15 amp max, Output: 115 V, 15 amp max.
It's a "temporary power tap / TVSS" - says so right on it.

>Are hairdryers exempt?
Yes. They are not continuous loads, they are always attended while operating for no more than a few minutes per day, and they are unplugged and put away after each and every use.

Hmmm, come to think of it, most of them are not really exempt. Except when used according to the manufacturer's instructions...

Perhaps someone has one of those monsters and wouldn't mind testing the actual amps drawn while running. I would be interested to know the actual amps and volts of a running 1875 W blow dryer.

Virgil,

That receptacle was the result of a loose screw and Aluminum wire.



Bill

hmmm...
after you've been around a while you come to realize what works and what doesn't, abiet statistical info.
I think everyone here has backstabbed the occasional device carrying a minimal load, and called it a day.
And probably seen their share of backstabbed boo-boo's too.
By the same token, many interacting codes have resulted in complete quagmires here, the end result, although compliant, seen objectively thru the eye of a proffessional bears scutiny.
But hey, it's our NEC, warts and all, the entire format screams "Question Authority",which is our right, from seasoned veteran to first day apprentice.
The manufacturing sector, however, is an entity that has us by the cookies. We, as a trade, have little input as to the complete garbadge marketed under the guise of trade tarrifs, and 17 NRTL's competing for the job of listing them.
Just think , why would the NRTL's no longer list #12 only for backstabbing, and not #14 ?

Allow me to start over then...

Mickky,
Backplugging Receptacles are Okey-dokey by me... In fact, they sell these that have no screws at all and you can save yourself some more money probably a good 10 cents per receptacle. Just be sure to strip the wire to proper lenghth, pull to test, and only use #14, solid wire.

This is not meant to be sarcastic in any way, I'm admitting to being wrong and I now gladly accept backplugging and will backplug the entire house I'm working on...hey it's a bid job... got to cut as many corners as possible...

And I'm going to return a customer's money for "unneccesary" work after I had replaced ALL of his backplugs with spec grades... (One HAD failed, too bad I didn't get a picture of it)

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-01-2001).]

You guys are taking this all way too personally! No one here is recommending anything, only admitting to ocassionally doing it. (Which, I might add, is approved by the most respected testing authority in the World)

You can't look that harshly at people following the code and UL listings. Maybe we should revisit the "Virgil comes Clean" series?

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 08-01-2001).]

Sparkys comment about #12 push-ins got me thinking...
Does anyone else remember when there were 2 push-in holes per screw?. Just think, you could connect 4 push-ins and 2 wrap arounds on each side, even for #12. Just hope your box was big enough.

Thanks, everyone (I think!) When I first started doing this, I thought that push-ins were agreat idea-fast, less space, etc. I always gave a tug to check, and then about a year ago, 2 receptacles failed the test with barely a pull. Avoided them ever since.

Hey Mickky,

Bet you'll think twice before asking a question around this town again!!

'66,

Is your viewpoint/dislike based on what you think is a high failure rate? or a safety concern? I have always thought UL was perhaps a little overcautious in their testing. If these things burn themselves free and stop working when heavily loaded/overloaded they might even be seen as safety devices?

I don't remember if I've ever seen one that had gotten to the condition shown in the picture. I'm thinking that they may stop working before they get that far.

Anyone?

I've had my share of problems with backstabbed receptacles in an industrial setting. Mostly flickering lights from bad connections made by going thru a backstabbed recep. I've seen bad connections with screw connections too. But a very low percentage compared to backstabbed.

Hi, Bill,

I hope you don't mind my stepping in on this one. The blow dryer wattage issue got mixed in with the back wiring only as a matter of "what does a UL listing really mean?".

Anyway, back wires do seem to burn clear. To me that they burn at all when not really overloaded is indicative of a poor contact. And it just may be that a poor contact was made during the installation.

I didn't think that '66 was suggesting that backstabbing leads to receptacles like the one in the fixture.

Backstabbing could lead to refrigerator failure and intermittent connections in receptacles - but that might only be if not properly installed in the first place. The low contact area is suspect in my mind.

Regardless, there are better ways. Lug and set screw like a circuit breaker, and clamp and screw like a GFCI receptacle are two superior methods.

A was mentioned, the plastic faces break off those receptacles often enough, particularly at the "U" ground, that one might suspect that UL doesn't really abuse these things before certifying them.

The UL Directory under the subject of receptacles includes the following statement:

"Screwless terminal connectors of the conductor push-in type (also known as "push-in-terminals") are restricted to 15 amp branch circuits and are for connection
with No. 14 AWG solid copper wire only.

They are not intended for use with aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire, No. 14 AWG stranded copper wire, or No
12 AWG solid or stranded copper wire."

Gosh fellas... I'm embarrassed, I apologize for going to far with this...

The stress of trying to get this music festival miracle accomplished is driving me bananas...

I never intended to take it out on any of my friends here...

Mr. Hixson first ingrained into my thinking that back plugging was a very bad no-no...
I've encountered about a half dozen failures in these receptacles... They're easy to "fix" too, just remove the recept, wiggle the wire and presto! put the recept back in... but the corrosion over time from the weak joint will rear it's ugly head again... Maybe not so quietly the next time... It will get worse with every "fix"... Who knows how many countless DIY'ers "fix" these type recepts in this manner.

Plus with the usual 47 other questionable techniques that usually go hand in hand when I see them (Circuits overloaded with extension cords everywhere, etc...) seem to complicate the matter.

Virgil,
AJ always referred to them as a "piece of ****"(junk), and I still agree.
I've taken out lots, and replaced w/ real recps. These were in res., comm & ind apps, high load, low load.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder.
Does anybody stab @ home?
(apologies to any of you "supercompetitive" residential guys)
I've not yet had to replace a screw-terminal recp because of anything other than stripped or loose screws (bad install) or an outside influence



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 08-01-2001).]

I second the vote electure;

callbacks are something we eat.

I pigtail everything...

Also, anyone ever read 'UL corner' ?

Sparky,

Why don't you share with us?

I forbid any of my employees to use push-in connections. How ever I like to thank all those electricians (and others) who use them, I can tell you that we have made Hundreds of service calls ($$$) over that last 25 years trouble shooting & redoing these failed push-in connections.

ok Bill,
but ya know what goes down when ya let me off my leash

UL corner is an IAEI article
Imagine yourself one of the OSHA sanctioned testing labs. You are in the biz of passing judgement on manufactured goods. The testing you do is in a laboratory setting, and the variables addressed are not those that necessarily are seen in the field. This is the ultimate gamble. Factor in the maufacturer's insert child labor from third world sweat shops that could easily choose 16 compeditors here, and said gamble up's it ante, right?
Why else would #12 be out, and #14 ok?
as one poster eloquently phases it
'body count'

Reminds me of the last time this happened (what was it now, whether or not to pre-twist wires?).
My conclusion... some will, some won't!

Sparky,

Re: #12s not being supported anymore.
I assumed that it was determined to be an inadequate connection for the loads that may likely be encountered (or, that cannot be avoided) on 20A circuits. (I'm not clear on the last half of your post)

What I was wondering is if there was a specific article that you were referring to that had info on this subject.

Bill

Bill,
There was an article, way back, i doubt i'll find it in my stack of mag's. My point is the rationale for outlawing #12's and accepting #14's has comprable integrity to claiming 2 bullets in the chamber is safer than 3 playing russian roulette.
The trade has seen loose connections at every load status.

Testing lab's are nothing more than a 'liability' kicking post for the trade , AHJ & end user to point to.

They should not be considered the advocate of quality, which is evident in Consumer Reports and similar periodicals that regularly trash 'listed' goods.

My father and I were getting the supplies needed to wire my traffic signal, and we bought a Leviton 3-switch Decora. Well stupid me put the project on the back burner for a month, past the return date! When I got back to the project, my Dad said, "that switch is back stabbed right," "yeah," I said. "Let's go to Sears Hardware," he said. "why," I said, "To buy some terminal screw single pole switches and a box." Now that I test that switch, a recepticle, and one of the new switches, they all had their back stabbed wires yanked out by hand and they fell right out! Geez, can they atleast make these more secure (AKA no back stabbing.) I salvaged (legally) a couple dozen outlets and switches (and GFCIs) from an old neighbor's house that was slated for demolition. Everything except for the 30 AMP 120/240Volt and the 20 AMP 120Volt in the laundry room was backstabbed. And most of the stitches (single pole) had power coming in their backs, and going out on the screw terminal and back terminal. I thought they were three ways, but three ways don't have three cables feeding them black wires! And I know people who have Copper-clad Aluminum backstabbed, and 12AWG Solid stabbed, and some trimmed and compacted 10AWG stranded backstabbed.


{Edited by the Electrikid on 11/21/2004 for spelling and content)

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 11-21-2004).]

mickky ---

I just replaced my personal recepts (too many layers of paint).

For 20 years they did exceptional duty in my shop and in our kitchen (1000w appliances used everyday).

They were were all backstabbed 15amp recepts 12g wire 20amp circuits.

No burn marks on the wire at the contact point.

(I replaced them with spec grade recepts with plate clamps.)

Well, here's my opinion on the backstab terminals:

I do not trust them. No, never.

Just my opinion.

Backstab is the common practice for suites in new highrise construction. Its what my company wants. Speed is everything.

Thankfully, finishing isn't what I usually do. I choose to use the screw terminals for all the other devices in the building

I don't think anyone touched on this...

What I do find with the backstabs is poor installation. Either too much wire has been stripped, or not enough care was taken to push the wire far enough in. No surprise that on troubleshooting we end up finding numerous shorts with the bare bond wire

I would say that at least 50% of my service calls for no power to lights/outlets are a direct result of push-in connections. First question I ask when I walk through the door is "where did you plug in the space heater"? I've seen many many melted plugs like the one posted earlier. They are always back- wired.
With a little practice and a screwgun, you can use the screw terminals and keep up with the backstabbers!
Pat

I suppose that I'm going to spoil all this fun discussin' by pointing out that I almost never run 15-amp circuits, or use #14 wire.

True, I do not do tract homes for piecework. But- and this get my goat- electricians are supposed to be trained professionals, who are expected to use their best judgement- not meerly be automotons racing through the jobsite. As such, we have to recognise that there are so many high-wattage appliances, and so frequent are the "unusual" changes in occupancy (re: bedroom to home office, garage to workshop) that it is unprofessional to do "the least possible."

Indeed, follow the chats on this site, and you will find many of us make good money upgrading installations that, while "legal," were inadequate the day they were installed.

Every outlet I have seen has either rear entry tunnels with a screw to hold the cable or uses an insulation displacement method to hold the conductors. I have only seen one outlet that has stab-in connectors which was an Australian made 115 volt dual outlet (NEMA 5-15R pattern) made by HPM.

... In my humblest opinion,they should do away with the so-called "EZ-wire" or back stab feature.UL should revoke its listing,as it IS a hazard!! I can't tell you guys how many troubleshooting jobs I've gone out on,only to find a burned up,charred,back stabbed receptacle/switch to be the culprit.Some of my "associates" say,.."oh well,it's job security",..yeah,but not at the cost of human life and/or property.My guys are forbidden to terminate devices in such a fashion..I don't care how much time it saves,..I gotta sleep at night!!
Russ

I've replaced my fair share of backwired outlets, but not one made since they stopped making the ones that accepted 12 and 14 gauge wire. I see as many problems with loose wires on the side terminal as I do with push ins. I wish all receptacles would be the newer backwire with the set screw.

What a great resurrected discussion. I pride myself as doing quality work and even admit to customers that I won't be the cheapest because I won't cut corners. However, I've never given the quickwire receps much thought. I've obviously not seen a problem with them, which isn't surprising due to my limited resi work. I am now going to stop using quickwires, AND I'm going to rewire all the receps in my house.

Thanks.

Well, let me chinme in my 2 cents. I have never seen my back stabs fail yet. But I have seen MANY side screw connections fry the whole duplex besause of improper installation. I believe IF the back stab device is installed properly then it should be safe. However, because of all the discussions on this topic by all you skilled personell, I have switched over to using back wired terminal connections like the P&S BR-15 and 20. I does give me a little piece of mind that I'm using a better quality recepticle. Not that I wouldn't back stab again. Just my 2 cents.

GOD Bless ALL and
Merry CHRISTmas.
Mark Randazzo