hey guys im new to this web page so go easy on me. Im also kind of new to the electrical field so i would apprecite your knowledge. I have a question? Is it normal for a home (built in the 50's) to have dimming lights when appliances get turned on. For example the washer and dryer will cause the light to dim or when the refrigerator kicks on.Is this a big problem? What causes this and can it be fixed?

This is kind of like trying to count the horse's teeth while sitting at the kitchen table.

The only real way to get a good answer that will serve your immediate need is to have a qualified electrician witness the dimming lights and do some tests. The causes are varied. Some are benign, some are malign. . .so, because of the latter, don't put this off.

The benign cause is voltage drop caused by the resistance in the wires that supply the power and a change in current on those wires caused by the motor start currents, and the human eye's peripheral vision sensing this fluctuation of light.

The potentially disasterous cause is a failing, maybe burning, connection, or an open neutral.

Impossible to tell from here.

drgnz23,
Welcome to ECN mate!.
It sounds to me like the mains to the panel are too small to supply the in-rush current of these appliances when they start up, causing the drop in voltage and hence the dimming lights.
I'd advise you to get the size of the service and the sub-circuit wiring checked.
Hope this helps.

Along the lines of what ElectricAL and Trumy have already said, you might want to investigate if the previous installer/owner "piggybacked" or tied together and neutrals from separate branch circuits.

(Easy way to tell - open the main panel board (breaker/fuse box) - if there are x # of circuits listed (with x# of corresponding fuses or breakers), there should be an equal number of neutrals tied into the neutral bus bar - not x# minus a few)

It's also possible that the newer appliances, while higher efficiency, are operating at a higher amperage than the equipment originally spec'd for the installation... maybe somebody switched a 50a dryer receptacle for the original 30a without re-wiring with larger conductors - that's a research and calculation call, to ensure your conductors are the right capacity.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 09-27-2003).]

Doug what if he has a house with some multiwire branch circuits?

In this case he will be short neutrals.

My 2 cents worth: I'm living in a late 50's house with 125 amp service. Frige, W/D, dishwasher have no noticable effect on the lights but I know exactly when the compressor in the garage starts. Since it is a 7.5 HP, single phase, line start, well I should. I think that dimming under normal household loads is a sign of problems. That is in the vintage of 2 wire romex, no ground, and very moderate electrical loads. Among other things, it is a prime candidate to have a FPE panel which, in itself, could explain the problems. Probably a good idea to have it checked out by somebody familiar with that kind of problem. If you're in the trade, get one of the old hands to show you the basics.

thanks for all the info..I went out to the panel which had a 100a 2pole zinco breaker and noticed arcing marks where the breaker clips on to the buss bars could this have any affect on the lights?

Yes it could

Understatement of the year


Iwire - didn't go into detail in the interest of KISS - was figuring if there were 15 branch circuits and 5 neutrals it'd be obvious to him... unless he has a whole lot of 220 or >30a's on the board.

Mea culpa.

Again, get some one that is a trained and qualified electrician to come to your location. Don't put this off.

drgnz23 My short answer was not much of a help.

I would most strongly recommend that you get an electrician in to look at this ASAP.

I am not familiar with zinco breakers, but dimming lights in combo with breakers that show signs of arcing is a situation that deserves proper attention.

Be prepared to do a panel change as the bus bars in the panel may (most likely) be damaged and will not be repairable.

Perhaps zinco is actually Zinsco?

You know I feel left, out as all the members here seem to know about and have worked with Zinsco breakers.

I do not think I have ever seen them or had heard the name before coming to the forums.

Bob

I've never seen a Zinsco breaker before; what's wrong with them?

Bob: You've never seen Zinsco? Well, my friend, you've missed out on the best!!!

They're almost as good as pushmatic, my personal favorite!

Bulldog Pushmatic panels very confusing in the three phase verity, the panels anyway, no 3 phase pushmatic breakers that I have seen.

I do service calls to a large store that has a Pushmatic switch board.

It has 8 or 10 pushmatic panels mounted horizontally in a common enclosure.

Glad there is plenty of spares still, I need them for replacements.

hi bob : you say pushmatic breakers ?? yeah i see it plenty in my area but to get 100 amps pushmatic mainbreaker cost more than new 100a load centere cost will be and yeah i did see one with three phase pushmatic box oh man what a nightmare

but i see few other oddballs too but i see 3 Zinsco breaker box so far but kinda rare in my area but pushmatic are very terrble with loose connetion at busbar and termail screw over the time

merci , marc

With the screwy "two-row" bus arrangement in Zinsco plug-in panelboards—that was fine for 120/240V 3-wire systems, but for 3ø, the bus bars literally had to be "braided" to match 3ø up with the needed two rows of bus stubs. If you ever saw one, it was unforgettably weird looking. What a mess.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 10-01-2003).]

Zinsco panels are known for having the buss burning at the breaker connection. One advantage that these panels have is it is very easy to replace the bussing if you can get a hold of an old panel. The was at least one company selling replacement busses but I haven't seen them in a while. Another trick that can be done is to trade the 2 busses with each other. This puts the bad spot in a position of the main breaker that there is no connection.

I would recommend you find someone to help with this repair that is experienced with Zinsco panels. Remember that the line lugs are still hot on the main breaker when it is off.

In my area there are probably Zinsco panels installed in homes than all other brands combined. I have a few hundred Zinsco breakers and some extra busses to use for repairs.

if you have to change out the buss bars does the meter have to be remove to work on them? is it illegal to remove the tag off the meter ring?

Your power company customer service will have to explain the rules they enforce. This is generally a published document, and may be available online. The rules vary widely from company to company, even localities within one company can vary.

The Los Angeles area that you are in will have an AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). You will have to contact them for the permit and to have the work inspected. This is not changing a light bulb.

The wording of your questions causes me to suspect that if you are an electrician, as you claim in your ECN Profile, that you are very early in your education and experience. Perhaps one of your teachers can visit the site of your Zinsco panel.

Since you seem to be compelled to Do-It-Yourself, it is important to underscore that you are in the deep end of the pool. From your questions, it is also apparent that your Zinsco panel is in need of immediate attention. DIYers are responsible for educating themselves, and this includes contacting the proper authorities (the power company and the electrical inspector), pulling a permit and obeying the rules. Hire a local electrician to consult with you while examining your Zinsco panel. Record the conversation (with their permission). . .the amount a data you will receive will be large. No amount of note taking will suffice.

Lastly, review the first paragraphs of this site's [b]Rules, Policies and Disclaimers[/b]

Bjarney (and others): I remember seeing several of those Zinsco load centers about 30 years ago being installed in a church. It really was a weird bussing arrangement... three busses, covered with some type of thermoplastic insulation, I guess - black, red, and blue, that looked like it was literally woven into place. If memory serves me, the breaker jaws only had to be set in one position (they are removable in order to tap one or the other buss in a 1 phase setup, of course) in order to pick up each of the three phases.

The larger 3 phase Zinsco panels with the larger frame bolt-in breakers (in the case of this church, used as a MDP) seem to be better quality, but the smaller load centers with these cheesy plug-in Q frame breakers are really fraught with problems.

Mike (mamills)

Mike (mamills)

Mike — You nailed the description exactly. “Q-frame” was the one—I forgot about those triple-cheesy ‘swing-around’ bus clips. If aluminum bussing ever had a hope for switchgear, Zinsco did their level best as a prime example of how NEVER do it. They may have well been in cahoots with a few fire-insurance carriers for the extra premiums.

Another thing I remember from earlier decades was that they always had rock-bottom prices for their 200A meter/main/panelboard—they did it by always making the main breaker an added accessory, and it was a fine P-O-S in its own right. I think they led the pack in introducing one of the first plug-in 200A-frame breakers.


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 10-02-2003).]

A number of years ago, a friend of mine called me because he was having problems with the lights in his house dimming/flickering, and even going out completely for a moment or two. When I went to his house, I was horrified to find a well-weathered Zinsco panel with a 150 amp plug-on main breaker (a really absurd idea, in my opinion), plus the usual numerous other smaller breakers. This 150 amp behemoth was hot to the touch, and generating the characteristic "bzzz" from the weak connection with the bussbars beneath. When I went to tap on it (the dead-front cover had long ago disappeared, I was told), the breaker popped off the busses into my hand, being supported only by the two hot legs coming from the meter! I could see how badly burned the buss bars were, and how the jaws on the breaker had lost their spring tension from the constant heating. My friend was not impressed when I told him what was going on, and that he was in the market for a new service panel. A day later, an excellent electrical contractor had replaced all this garbage with a brand new Square D panel, still working perfectly to this day.

drgnz23; I go along with the sound advice offered by electricAL. It appears that you have gotten all the "goody" out of your old Zinsco, and it's time to upgrade.

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 10-02-2003).]

Thank you guys for all the info...I wanted to get all the great knowledge that you guys could offer and i have suceeded . I appreciate it all

Bjarney's message caught my eye, and I wanted to add to it.


And, along the lines of Mamills' reply regarding the 3Ø Zinsco Bus:


I have dealt with quite a few of 3Ø Zinsco Subpanels with the mentioned type of Plug-On Bus Kit.
A "Weaved" and "Color-Coded" Bus is the best description that could be made!

The way the Breaker's termination stab(s) are positioned to terminate across opposite Phase Bus tabs was done by physically unscrewing the termination on the frame, then flipping it backwards from its current position.

Even more of an oddity was the 3Ø Split (or Dual) Bus type Subpanels. These had two seperate Bus Kits inside of one Enclosure (they were both the same type of "Weaved And Color-Coded" Bus Kits).
This resulted in a Zinsco Subpanel which had the similar "Left-Right" Breaker Spaces of other Panelboard types.

As known, the normal Zinsco layout has one "row" of breaker spaces - and if you number the circuits, they would go in step - "1", "2", "3", "4", etc. All on "One Side" (actually, there's only one row, so there is no real "Side" to reference!).

On the before mentioned Panel, the dual bus kits resulted in "Left: Odd, Right: Even" circuit numbering of spaces - similar to the "Normal" breaker space layouts of other brands.

(BTW: There were other makes of Panelboard Bus Kits with a single row setup. Square D's "XO" Panels are one such brand).

As to the rant about the Zinsco Plug-On Bus termination, I have thought the same as Bjarney!


Have dealt with SOOOOOOOO many fried terminations on misc. 225 Amp - 400 Amp sized Zinsco MCCB Frames, which were Plug-On.

Not all Manufacturers Plug-On frames are Immune! - Replaced lots of other brands too, just seemed to be a much higher percentage of Zinsco's (also, they were in Commercial Enviroments..the Zinscos and the others).

One particularly irritating event was during an Active Bank Branch remodel (Keep the Bank in full operation, remodel the entire building "around them").

Switch gear for both systems was Zinsco, and used Plug-On Busses.
(older area and building - services fed from a 4 wire Delta. One 3Ø service section, one 1Ø service section)

1Ø Gear Section had two - 200/2 frames, along with a few smaller ones. The 200/2's fed heavily loaded Subpanels.

During the preliminary stages of the remodel, odd behavior was observed in the operation of the existing Indoor Lighting - Transient dimming, fixtures going off then on; along with Motors running sluggish (bathroom exhaust fans).
Contactors of the EMS Control Panel I had installed previously were also effected - and were randomly opening and closing rapidly.

All these loads were on the same Subpanel.

Since we needed to keep the Branch in full operation (we worked the crucial remodel stuff during the branches "Off-Hours"...AKA Night Work!), and the problem had become increasingly worse over a 4 day period, it was agreed that I would shoot trouble on this ASAP.

Checked the entire Subpanel, found nothing wrong! (Subpanels just happened to be right next to the gear, too!).
Suddenly as I was replacing the Dead-Front, the lights started freaking out again - and the Subfeed Breaker was buzzing like crazy!

A simple Inspection of the breaker revealed the problem!
Next Evening after the branch was closed, I replaced the breaker + cleaned up the bus kit.
When I tried to unloosen the lugs for the Subfeed Conductors, the entire frame disintegrated in front of me!

Had things back up in about 1½ Hours.
No problems on that Subpanel after that.

Next one to fail was the Subpanel with the Computer Equipment on it!!!

About 10 days after the first scenario was rectified, it hit again - this time the problem was causing a greater deal of bad stuff!

Again, transient losses of power were experienced on...of course, ½ the computers each time! The server equipment was on UPS, which the power loss alarm could be heard once in a while.

The other affected Subfeed frame was located at the Upper Right of the bus kit, and this one was at the Lower Left.

I troubleshot the situation - except this time, began at the Gear.
Sure enough, the exact same thing was happening here, and the frame also disintegrated upon loosening the lugs.

Prior to final commissioning, both bus kits on both Gear sections were replaced, along with the remaining existing frames. (Bank's Const. & Dev. staff weren't hesitant in the least to authorize this C/O!!!)
They had sent numerous techs out prior to the remodel to fix the problem (staff calls for service), along with sending out IBM to verify things on the machines.

Can only imagine the money lossed on this!
Losses from the service calls, the IBM support calls, the loss of data, all that stuff!

Having dealt with these types of situations really drives home the idea of NOT using Plug-On devices in Designing of Electrical Systems for Commercial Enviroments!!!

Hope this story is enlightening and interresting!

Scott35

Scott — That is a very lucid account. To hear about loss of critical business data caused by cheap, sleazeball power systems is so sad. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

When institutional and commercial buildings are fitted with gear that is substandard even for a housing tract, all the “We just cannot stand for this!” junior-assistant-trainee office manager or snot-nosed MBA whining is mildly entertaining.

First. Aluminum has no memory. Tighten the neutral lug as it gets loose...DIM !! and second.. Yard out that old zinsco panel and re-wire the house up to code ! You will feel alot safer and be able to sleep at night ! Smoke det. in each room, ect.. ya know !!! Electrical services dont cost much and can save your life ! whyrag

This post reminds me of an installation I did years ago as an apprentice.

A pottery person had two kilns on an old service, and kept blowing fuses.
She had a 100A service, with two 30A kilns on fused disconnects. She knew she could only run one kiln at a time, but would blow fuses when the elements shorted during an explosion in a kiln.

She wanted breakers instead of fuses. They didn't make them anymore for her panel. She couldn't afford a main panel replacement. We couldn't find a 60A breaker for a sub-panel. We did find a 60A main breaker that would fit her panel. It was a screw-in as opposed to push-in.
We talked to the local inspector, called the national onsite approval people, drilled and tapped her existing bus bars, and installed the 60A to feed a sub-panel.
All authorities agreed and passed it because they estimated her 'old' bus bars capable of 300A.