ECN Forum
Posted By: sparky Is It Safe? - 07/25/01 11:23 PM
NOTE; This Q is borrowed , July CEE article by Bill

I get the Q all the time, "Is It Safe" from customers. I have not as yet honed my response into a 'one phase fits all' response.

I am curious as to how the rest of trade responds...

will appologies to Bill here, it's a worthy Q...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bhester Re: Is It Safe? - 07/25/01 11:40 PM
Most cases you can't see all the work done so when I hear Is It safe ,well ,since I can't see everything it would be hard to say if it was safe or dangerous.But where I work they all want the information, they don't want to pay to check it out,so no money ,no check.
Posted By: sparky Re: Is It Safe? - 07/26/01 12:14 AM
hmmmm,
well bhester....
maybe an advertized 'safety check' would fly when it's slow????
Posted By: Redsy Re: Is It Safe? - 07/26/01 01:52 AM
Safe is a relative term and the question is subjective.
Ask 5 sparkys, get 5 different answers.
I think the best thing to do is tell people what you would do if it was yours.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Is It Safe? - 07/26/01 03:27 AM
Sparky,

I felt my "Ears Burning" and had to add a comment.

I'm glad that you liked the article (you did, right?). BTW, "Is it Safe?" was the original title I had for the Article.

To further our Q here, take a look at this page and what the basis of the Court argument was ("Last Clear Chance"). Can this be applied to our situation?

http://www.injurycases.com/news.html

Food for thought?

Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-25-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: Is It Safe? - 07/26/01 06:00 AM
definite thinking material!
i quess we need to stay somewhere inbettween blatant ingnorance and carpetbagging in expression of our observations.
Posted By: Tom Re: Is It Safe? - 07/26/01 09:28 PM
Bill.

After reading about that case, I have little sympathy for someone who would put themselves in that position. BTW, as far as I know, the doctrine of "Last Clear Chance" does not apply in every state.

Evidently, we must protect all people from their own stupidity at all times. I thought that the law of natural selection should apply in these cases so that these folks couldn't contribute to the gene pool. [Linked Image]

Anyhow, when I see something I don't feel I can keep quiet about, I tell the customer & if they don't want it fixed, I make sure to put a description of the problem on their invoice.

For grins, try the following site regarding the Darwin Awards
http://www.darwinawards.com/index.htm
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 02:32 AM
Tom,

I like your Link, [Linked Image]
I often wonder where lines get drawn. With laws like the "Good Samaritan" law it's not much of a stretch to finding us responsible for problems we see but do not fix. Maybe we should get paid before we come in the front door? [Linked Image]

Bill
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 04:48 AM
I thought the "Good Samaritan" was a moral teaching. Is it now against the law not to choose to help people?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 04:58 AM
By the way, the "Good Samaritan" laws I've heard of on this end of the country are intended to shield from liability those who do their best when they intervene, not find them liable for not helping. The problem is, an electrician is a professional not a layman when it comes to knowing electrical hazards.

I'm sure automobile mechanics face the same thing when a person wants a bald tire patched, a tire changed when the brakes are worn out, and so forth. They usually list this as recommended work, do they not? My local garage has a preprinted place on their form for this very thing.

"Numerous other electrical hazards should be remediated promptly."


[This message has been edited by Dspark (edited 07-27-2001).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 07:45 PM
Anybody watch Seinfeld? Just curious
There also seems to be a "Duty to Assist"

I don't know about other areas, but this is from Minnesota, I don't know if it was enacted or not:

Quote
604A.01 Good Samaritan law.

Subdivision 1. Duty to assist. A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person. Reasonable assistance may include obtaining or attempting to obtain aid from law enforcement or medical personnel. A person who violates this subdivision is guilty of a petty misdemeanor.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 09:53 PM
So if I see that a wire is about to burn someone's house down, I am require to cut off their electric and call the police?
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 10:30 PM
Don't know,
I'm just theorizing about possible arguments that may come up.

What if you, a Professional, happen to see a hazard in a very acessible location but do not correct it, can you be held liable somehow if something happens?

Now, the reasons for not correcting it could be many, does it matter? You didn't tell them, You did tell them, but they don't want to spend the money right now, etc. What if it only required some time? What do you do?
How bad is it really? Can you always tell?

I'm not expecting answers to these questions, just tossing them out there as food for thought on some arguments that could come up.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 11:24 PM
I wasn't really expecting an answer to my question either.

As much as it violates my conscience, I don't think I have a right to help a person in danger if that person doesn't want my help.

"Child and Youth Services. How may I direct you call?"
"Hello, I want to report a house with children in it that might burn down."
"How is this?"
"Their fuse box is full of 30 A fuses and Lincoln busts. They are running two window air conditioners. I got a reading of 200 degrees in the basement on the wires. Who knows how hot they get behind the walls! Oh, and I want this to be an anonymous report, please... I'm an electrician and it would be bad for business if people heard that I called CYS on a customer."
Posted By: sparky Re: Is It Safe? - 07/27/01 11:32 PM
It is the ultimate 'What If' Q....

i don't think we as a trade could easily be held to any standards of liabilty, there are too many variables.
i do think that an ethical tradesman should voice his/her concerns.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 12:04 AM
But if it burned to the ground with fatalities and you were at their house the day before working on the panel, or had reason to open it, you would likely be involved in some legal matters.

Your example does sound a bit "out there" but I think that in some areas you can report violations and they will be investigated, especially where children or others that can not help themselves are involved.

I just think it's a very difficult situation to be in. If I saw something really wrong where I was working and it was easy to lessen the danger I would do it no matter what.

Example: Live wires exposed - I Cap them
But now, can I be liable somehow for not doing it totally legit? (putting them in a box w/cover?) Does anyone know?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 12:21 AM
>Your example does sound a bit "out there"
Well, actually it was not embellished very much.... but I don't feel up to having the actions that I took in this case scrutinized.

>but I think that in some areas you can report violations and they will be investigated,
But alas, I can't report them anonymously.
Afterall, who could know but the electrician who was just there trying to squeeze out more work?


Sure I regularly put on or replace cover plates and I am especially concerned when I see small children near something dangerous.


Yes, I would have a problem with just putting a wire nut on a live wire. I would say that it has to go in a box, or be disconnected and removed. If I just put a nut on it, someone might think, well, the electrician was here and he made it safe now. Then I get sued because some kid got the wire nut off and got burnt.

At least it takes a screwdriver to remove a wall plate.
Posted By: Tom Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 12:51 AM
No doubt about it, this area is a can of worms (with teeth).

Anybody know a lawyer who would be willing to make some general comments?

Personally, keep your hands off, notify the customer, if they refuse to fix it, make sure you note it on their invoice so there will be a record that at least you notified them. Don't know what I'd do if there was a housefull of kids involved, hope I'm never in that position.
Posted By: sparky Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 12:53 AM
I do a lot of biz for slum owners. this is not a part of my biz that i would brag about. it's usually a lot of service calls for generic boo-boo's.

I see a lot of bad news, hanging wires, flying splices, oversized fuses and breakers, open junctions, critter damage, unplated devices, you name it.

Any one of these hazards could be lethal given the right circumstances. Many times i do speak up, but nothing is done. After a while you realize that there are certian individuals that will hear only what they want to.

To make matters worse, there are hords of 'home inspectors' without so much as a dale-carnigee certification who will walk right past potential time bombs , only to have a tradesman fix the ol' standard 2 wires on a breaker deal.

I'm tired of going toe to toe with those
ham heads....

You see it gets political, and i was coincidentially talking to VT's chief inspector about such matters today.

Yes i like to point out saftey issues, but if the powers that be do not care to, don't lay it on our shoulders as a trade to do so.

I'll pass the cryin' towel now.....NEXT!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 12:59 AM
Sounds familiar... Say, have you ever seen like perhaps two window air conditioners running off extension cords with the U grounds broken off or anything like that? Just wondering...
Posted By: sparky Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 01:30 AM
similar situations yes.

today i viewed a mobile home, fed via #2 triplex from the nearest pole(140') via meter/ main.

the triplex terminates in an uncovered unsecured 6X6 under the skirting to change to #2 SEU to the panel.

there are no G-rods , or disco's on pedestals, and the place has AL wiring thruout.

many of the obvious violations exist, yet this place has just been sold...

(the AC unit has blackened the mating receptacle 1/2 way to charcole)

I fixed what i was called to fix, and called the owner to voice my concerns, that's all i can do.....
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 03:28 AM
I see horrible things almost every day...

My lack of a macro camera keeps me from posting the lot of them.

Again, I say that the only jobs that completely pass muster are the ones I've started and have seen to completion... and still some violations sneak in...(See Short Meter )

It is a moral dilemna I face almost every day... And then I read where electricians have actually gone to jail for negligent homicide... in cases where simple mistakes were made that I could have been just as guilty of in the same circumstance...

When people ask of the condition of their wiring, I've been known to say "Keep your insurance premiums up to date..." or "I'll gladly wire your new place when you rebuild after the fire..."

I also have a disclaimer sheet that at least implies that Kelly Electric has been removed from liability from said problems listed, and the customer is aware of the dangers, etc. It may not be worth the paper it's written on, but it's something.

Oddly, most are painfully aware of the poor condition of their wiring, but have no means to do anything about it.

My house is a perfect example. It's scary...
(however, I do have 15A fuses, and lots of GFCI's...I'm going to get some AFCI's when they're available here...I try to make it a little safer...)

At any rate, I often feel that I'm caught in the middle being the "expert" when this situation occurs.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-28-2001).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 03:59 AM
I haven't had too much Trailer work because there aren't many around but I did have one experience that I'll always remember. Forgive the embellishment as it is a piece that was cut from the article so it would fit in the space allotted.

Quote
An example of this Consumer naiveté that comes to mind started with a 1 am call on or about Dec 23rd several years ago. A resident of a local trailer park complained of having no electricity or heat. Upon arriving I was told that the utilities to the trailer had been turned off by the local fire department for some “unknown” reason. After just a quick investigation and a brief chat with the Fire Marshall (they called him at 2am!) a number of glaring violations were found. The plug supplying power to the trailer had exposed wiring and reverse polarity, the panelboard was loose (unmounted) and lying face up under a bed. The Christmas lights outside were mounted to the metal siding with sheet metal screws and the service was not bonded to the trailer frame. As each violation was pointed out to them I was told how long that particular situation had existed and so it could not be the cause of todays’ problem. What was the problem that brought me there? I don’t know specifics on how it was discovered, but there was a voltage present on the trailer skirting that was arcing to the propane supply line that ran through it. This, together with a propane leak, made for a very dangerous situation with several contributing elements that the customer basically wanted to ignore. After tagging along behind me for a few minutes they knew exactly how to restore service to their trailer and were sure to do it as soon as I left. They just did not understand the hazards. I wish that I could say I was able to convince them, but I wasn’t. What to do? Well, after some thought about the neighbors 10 feet away on either side, each with their own propane tank, and visions of a big crater in my mind I decided that a little donated labor was a small price to pay for piece of mind (mine). I like to think that maybe I brought Christmas a little early that year to all the residents of the trailer park. I’m not sure what the moral of the story is but I learned something about how far someone is willing to go to avoid, or because they can’t afford dealing with a situation like this, and it did make me feel better.

We all know someone that knows that their electrical service is inadequate or unsafe but are ‘going to have it done later because things are tight’. They see that new $2,000 kitchen countertop or front door is a justifiable expense though. When it comes down to the cost of the ‘seen vs. the unseen’ many times it’s no contest. Every time I see this I can’t help but think that a ‘reality check’ is in order, but can’t be overly critical when realizing that similarities exist in us all to some extent. Unfortunately, it may take something extreme for them to start taking their electrical system seriously.
Posted By: sparky Re: Is It Safe? - 07/28/01 11:02 PM
I have commented to some that a certian level of electrical maintanence is just like a tune up for your car. ....so when's the last time your home had a tune-up right?

some grasp the anology and i will imbelish as needed.

I'm willing to wager that any sparky worth his salt has a horror story , with the potential disasters possible not entirely clear to the owner of said atrocity.
© ECN Electrical Forums