I've got a 2 story house with a full basement to rewire. The first holed I bored in the wall upstairs, revealed that there was a brace in the wall. I went and bought me a 55" Greenlee flexibit, with the auger type end and it worked fine. Only problem was there were 2 more braces in the wall. I only have a choice now of having a 5ft. extension made for the flexibit and hoping it don't slip at the coupling inside the wall,or cutting the sheet rock 2 times at every drop. I don't hardly see another way, but thought I'd ask for opinions. I've got the whole house to do, and hadn't even got 1 wire fished down yet Thanks for the input.... Steve

Sparkync
The braces you are describing are usually located in the corners of the building. Try to relocate the devices further away from the corners if you can. Also in some of these older buildings you will find 'ballon' framing, which will save you a lot of effort. In the basement, go to the gable end of the house and look up at the framing. You may just see the 'balloon framing, or try pushing the snake up into the framing. If it is 'balloon' framing, you have got it made in the shade

Pierre

Steve,

In my experience, there's no accounting for the presence of old blocking, until one figures out the history. Old window and door opennings that have been closed is one source. I've also had to deal with what appeared to be old fire blocking, but that is quite rare, in my experience, in my area.

The point is, the buried framing history is a big part of what makes rewires really hard to bid accurately. Collateral damage to wall surfaces is inevitable, and the art is to do it to the side of the wall that costs the least to re-decorate.

Early on, I picked up an Auger Extender Kit that was made by ITT Holub Industries, Product No. 18-653. (I can't find them on the Web) The parts in the kit were used on either end of a section of 1/2" water pipe. . .a drive end and a chuck end. I got a collection of 2 and 3 foot sections of water pipe with couplings and I then had a bit that I could extend to 30 (thirty) feet. I actually put it to use at that length once.

Most commonly, I'll use it to go from the basement to the attic of a two-story wood frame where I'm certain of the alignment of the walls.

The drive end of the adapter finally twisted off (it was only 3/8", as manufactured) so I cut off a piece of a 1/2" hex shaft extension for a hole saw and brazed it into the end of the short starter section of water pipe, and I was off and drilling again.

It occurs to me that a chuck could be brazed into a short starter section of pipe, as well.

Once the bit arrives in the attic, use pipe wrenches to turn off the starter section, push a fish tape down the pipe, and then go to the basement and take out / disassemble the sections of pipe.

This setup, though somewhat time consuming, has made the hard job easy and the impossible possible.

Thanks for the replies. I went today to a
machine shop, and he is making me a 5 ft. 1/4" extension with a set screw coupling for the 55" bit I already have. I'll try to let you know how it works. I think I'll put some duct tape around the coupling part to try to save the bit just in case it comes apart Steve

Greenlee makes extensions for these bits. No need to have one manufactured. I would be nervous about letting 10 feet of drill bit fly inside a wall cavity. What kind of job is this? Is it a remodel where holes are an acceptable option?

Electricmanscott, this is a 50 year old house with old knob and tube wiring, with approx. 10 ft. ceilings with 3 braces in the walls. The lady has had new sheet rock put up on most of it without having it rewired first. A bad mistake, but it's already done
I'm trying to make as little of a mess as I can. The receptacles are going back in her baseboard, which has been taken off. That's one plus for me. One of the bad parts of that is that there are 4 X 4 post in the corners or I could fish my wires around the walls once I had the main feed down, but that's going to be hard to do in a 4 X 4 post in the corners I checked with the supply houses here, and also on the internet, and all I can find is a 2 ft. extension, which is no where near long enough. This is my last option before I start cutting sheetrock and plaster:0 I've told the lady I may have to do it, but I'm trying to save me time and her a mess. By the way, I've already give her a price, so I've got to be careful. I've already spent probably $ 150.00 not counting my labor, and I don't even have 1 wire down yet.. Looking for it to get better though It's going to be a long journey til the end looks like.... Steve

check out these guys www.lsdinc.com

Thanks for that link. I see several tools we could use.

ElectricAl,
I sure would like to have one of those bit extensions. I found lots of sites selling ITT Holub tools but no luck on the drill kit and no luck finding Holubs site. One link took me to Thomas and Betts, maybe they bought Holub?
I sure would appreciate it if anyone knows where I could find one.
Thanks, Brian

I have several Diversabit extensions up to 6 feet long.

Take a look at this page >> Diversabit

from Dale Electric Supply:

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 08-19-2003).]

Sparkync, I have rewired ALOT of very old houses and have never gone about it the way that you are. There has always been a better way in the houses that I have done. Of course the "balloon" walls are by far the easiest but I'm not lucky enough to come across them often. Rewiring the main floor receptacles is straight forward enough that I assume you do not need instruction (let me know otherwise). Second floor receptacles, switches, and lights need to be accessed from the attic. In a large majority of cases, a chase already exists from the basement to the attic (usually where the 3 or 4 inch vent pipe is installed). In the rare case where no such chase is available, look for closets or other inconspicuous areas of the house that line up on the 1st and second floor. In these cases, either run the wire exposed in these "hidden" areas so that they can be easily boxed-off by a trim carpenter or make the minimal sheetrock holes necessary for fishing within those walls. I have ALWAYS found SOME way to get romex to the attic. Once in the attic, I haven't had much problem fishing down to the 2nd floor outlets (maybe I have just been lucky in that reguard). I know I would never be able to use your method of utlizing a 10' extension! The bit would have little chance of staying within the wall cavity! Whatever method you chose, you should let the homeowner know just how much additional labor is involved since the sheetrock was installed first! The bill is going to be huge (in comparison) and the owner needs to know he/she is to blame (not you). I'm not suggesting you be harsh, just matter-of-fact.

Depot here has the extensions,(54") I saw them today. As for the job, for me it would be time and material or forget it.

Steve,

Is the 4x4 the main obstacle to going around the room?

Did you ever try drilling a hole from 2 sides to form a right angle that meets in the middle? It's not too bad to snake around if you know how to do it. That way you could run all around the room if you had to.

(top view of 4x4 looking down)

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 08-19-2003).]

Triple, I've done many rewires also, and this is the first time I have come across this problem with so many braces. I am just experimenting with the 5 ft. extension. The attic is very large so I'm hoping I can go straight down with no problems. And yes I may have to cut some sheet rock if this doesn't work. I'm not investing anymore labor til I get the extension and see how it works.
Electricmanscott: If I hadn't already give the lady a contract, it might would have been better to do time and material, but I have to stand behind my part unless she offers to do more. Once I get started, it may not be so bad.
I'll have to look in Home Depot again, I know they got the bits but I didn't know they had extensions that long... Thanks for all the input from everyone..I've learned on jobs like this, to take it one step at a time. It always works out in the end. Thanks a lot... Steve...

I bought some long bits from these guys last week.
http://www.fiberfish.com/

..I just hope you went in as Time and Material...a job like this can get costly...Trust me!!!
AR

Two Words:

"Hidden conditions" there was no possible way to forsee the conditions inside the walls. If you do not include this clause in your contracts you should start. If not break out the sawzall it is not your fault they closed in the walls prematurely. If that is not an option I agree with triples' method and pick yourself up some 50' snakes and cut them to appropriate lengths, fiberglass snakes are nice but nothing beats a steel snake. Since they are putting up baseboard make all your holes behind that. Hire a temp laborer for all your cuts and cleanup you can't beat $20 per hr and you can tend to more important issues.

Good Luck

Jeff Rose

I have used the long 3/4 bit once and that was enough. After the third stud i went right into a water pipe. So no more long bits for me.
I open up walls to see whats is behind it then drill through any structural membrane.

Edward.

Steve,
We just completed a job on a house like the one you described. We put a sub panel on the second floor, and wired down from the attic.
The first floor we wired up from the basement. The house had a mix of wall board and lath and plaster, deadman and cross supports all over the frame, none of these were in our way. The only rough part was removing floor boards from the attic, we had to be careful not to crack the ceiling below.
We reinstalled the floor with screws, not nails, it worked well. We did not make our 8 % mark-up, because we were the low bidder, $9700, plus permit fees. After we completed
the job the owner treated us to a nice dinner, and showed us the other bids. $12,000 and 14,500. I think the next time we will try T&M. Steve try the up and down method, it went well except the attic floor.

... What LK said...

Steve,
I'm known locally as the "Last Resort" Electrician.
I do things that most other Sparkies wouldn't even have a clue about, especially with our '70's skillion roofs.
But, with respect to drilling, it's all in the angle that matters, we don't use flexible feeds here, just a 2ft auger bit in sizes up to 2", in a power drill.

On this rewire, I already passed the upstairs trial. Had to knock holes everywhere there was a "brace". Homeowner understood, she had a lot of remoldling to do anyway. I tried everything I knew and could do, to get away from it, but just wasn't practical. I've started a little in the downstairs, but I'm waiting on her to clean out some rooms. Plus she's waiting on me, since I've had other work to do also.
It's all working out real well for us both at the time. She's in no hurry,and she doesn't really have much time to clean out downstairs for me, and like I've said, I've been real busy on other jobs. In my absence, it has gave her time to get her carpenters in, to do other work that she's needed. So all in all it's been good. I gave her an estimate in the beginning, but since things have been so unexpected, ( the walls and so forth ) I think she's willing to "compensate" for it. I'm trying to stay as close as I can to the original price.
Right now I'm getting ready to start on some more jobs, until she calls me again. I'm still trying to get the "portable generator wiring" right. Thanks for the input. Steve

Good luck,
Sounds like guite a job. I guess the spackler will follow up with whatever damage you make. I've heard stories where the carpenters will open the sheetrock up from the floor 1 1/2', so that the wiring can be drilled in, and then the rock is repaired after. It's almost the same as new construction then, along with alot of fishin. It's great if you have a carpenter that will work with you, or the homeowner, in the case of a complete re-wire.

Aside — One part of drilling and fishing in stud walls is that the building owner almost never appreciates the {indeed, thankless} skill and patience {and, face it, luck and agony} an electrician has in redoing existing buildings.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 02-12-2004).]