A little blurb on Channel 5 TV about portable generators selling out just sparked this thought in my head (uh ohh).

I'm guessing a lot of people buy these gennies with the two-cycle gas engines and hook them via jumpercables with alligator clips directly up to the panel bus bars in the house.

I'm thinking this is EXTREMELY dangerous because when you hook these things up you're also sending current back out the main, to the pole pig, etc. etc. You get the idea.

This would be extremely dangerous to the lineys working to resolve the power outage.

Comments? Corrections?

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 08-18-2003).]

i think most people know to turn the main off but not always. a lineman here died a couple of years ago and it probably happens every year across the country.

maybe they should be sold like heating/ac equipment; only to licensed contractors.

well i see alot of place includeing my shop i do sell the generators and by the state law i have to put a waring sign on it to let other peoples know that when run portable generators and stronly advise them to use the transfer switch to advoid some probem and i know few peoples did jerryrigged somekind of connetion and i told them they have to remove it and use the proper transfer switch for the house or commercal bulding and there are few manufacters can make transfer switch for proper useage

if need more question just ask me


merci marc

http://www.haywired.com/generator/pageindex.htm

'Nuff said.

Read the forum and the furnace hitch up scheme.

Just so you know...generators have four stroke engines, not two stroke.

Sven,
I was involved in several areas during Y2K. One article I wrote and handed out to lots of strange groups was on generator safety. Then got involved with a ham on Channel 4 news who also spread the word.

Most homeowners would not consider the jumper cable routine, but will not hesitate to proclaim themselves geniuses when they think of installing 2 male cord caps and backfeeding their dryer/welder/A/C outlet. They do not think about turning off their mains, and this is VERY dangerous to lineys. I warned all my guys at the time, and sent up the red flag to all in the area through Civil Defense type organizations (they were taken over by Hams years ago as RACES [Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service] or ARES {Amateur Radio Emergency Service}, in some states they perform seperate functions, in VA they are one and the same.

It is something that cannot be said enough though, so sing out proudly.

The only consolation is the thought of some genius trying to feed an entire circuit with a 5 KW Coleman he bought at the big orange box.... Let's face it, it ain't gonna last long.

Guys,
I would have thought that a Transfer Switch or a Contactor would be mandatory for ANY stand-by power system?.

This is another good reason for securely grounding a circuit before working on it.

Generators aren't all that common in my area, but those who have considered one have often tried to go down the "just connect it to the nearest wall socket" route.

The price of a transfer switch and proper installation has deterred quite a few, although I don't doubt they've gone with the exdtension cord route.

I bet that Haywired Tom was really pleased with that pass-thru idea!

During the ice storm in 98 many homes in Maine went without power for a week, others for more than 2 weeks, Generators were everywhere. The funny thing is, I don't remember any line workers getting hurt but several people died from carbon monoxide poisoning when they put the generator in their basement

Sven, targetshootr,
The only situation where a Liney would get a shock off the lines fed by one of these Genny's is if they were STUPID enough to touch Lines that they knew COULD be live.
Most Liney's carry non-contact Voltage testers for LV work and Insulated Gloves, although all the stupid ones DON'T wear them!.

Trumpy,
Ain't trying to start an argument here, bro, but you know yourself when you sectionalize a line (open up two ends and ground it out for you non-lineys) you are considered perfectly safe to bare hand. Even grounded though, if some twit in the middle pours line voltage back in, you will still find deadly voltages.

The way we were taught to ground years ago, was changed in the last 5 years for just that reason, but even that method is not bullet proof. I've worked "dead" lines with just leathers many times, but again back to the twit rule, just danged lucky it never happened.

These generators are sold for a lot of other purposes than power outages, so one cannot restrict their sale.
During this recent outage I was talking to a plumber on the job and he told me he used his generator to power his panel. He did not disconnect the main, he said he did not realize the danger. How many other people did the same?
One has to be careful working on any system, who knows who has been there before you?

Pierre

Trumpy and George Corron:

Are linemen ever permitted to work without gloves (not including those who "bond on" with those metal-threaded suits)?

A reading from a tester is valid at the time of the reading. If somebody switches on the generator after the lineman has tested and found no voltage...

ThinkGood,
Ya gotta remember, Trumpy and I are in different countries, AND were trained at different times. The old saying is "The only safe wire is one where you have both ends in your pocket"

We used to bare hand when we knew it was opened on both ends, and grounded. Most line companies have policies preventing this now, probably a good thing.

You can work any conductor hot from the right bucket bare handed with no problem, but ya can't forget where you are, or what you're doing, not even for one second, your head gets a little close to another phase, you're dead.

We used 40kv gloves on 34kv lines, if you had someone in the bucket with you, even gloved and sleeved, your keys would arc over to a rivet, or keys in the other guys jeans... used to be one of the initiation rights.

Short answer, not anymore. Most companies require linemen to even climb gloved and sleeved, and I don't know if I could do that or not. There is also the factor of the gloves don't bend well at all when cold, and in the summer, you have water running out of them making them slippery, some rules seem to cause a lot more problem than they cure.

Some companies require gloves and sleeves to climb, AND goggles. Climb a pole in August, 95 degrees, gloved and sleeved, with goggles on, on a high humidity day, now I can't grip the pole, but that's OK since I can't see how far I have to fall, and they wonder why my respect for safety departments seems to be a tad on the low side?????

Hope that comes close to answering your question. The first time I heard of this rule, a young lineman was in one of my classes, 24 years old, just had a daughter. He climbs to a transformer, took his right hand glove off so he could remove his goggles to wipe them so he could see. A fault occurred (possibly because of the wet glove) and killed him. The company denied his widow's claim for life insurance because her husband had violated their policy by being up the pole without all his safety equipment, of course they heard from me, but it did no good.

Kinda makes ya wanna go to plumbers school don't it?

Now for the "down under" version, Mike????

Due to the EPA controls, 2 cycle generators are now politically incorrect but not too long ago, low wattage 2 strokes were common. Use one in a campground and your neighbors would likely kill you over the noise. I think if they made the prices on transfer switches a lot more reasonable, more people would have them installed.

I have had many request for a generator install. I refuse to jury rig the set up and always suggest the proper transfer switch set up. Most homeowner joes are not aware of such a device. They get their advice from Dad's and Granddad's that has been handed down for years. (No offence!) When I explain the simple transfer and the advantages of a safe installation most people go for it.

Blessings, Mark

i seem to get a fair number of calls for them also. we get mostly ice in winter and with the blackout and world gas/oil situation i expect more will be calling.i doing such a job right now. i just bought a GE 200a 3r switch for $299 which aint bad. although to look at it you might think a fairer price would be $150. not much to it.