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The air conditioner quit pumping cold air the other night, my rommate shut it off and called the A/C guys the next day. I came home when they were just getting finished. They showed us the problem. The contacts on the contactor were fried.

It took them 30 minutes from start to finish, and all they did was change the contactor. I could have found the problem myself, but I was busy and on the weekend I didn't know where to find A/C parts anyway.

The bill to change the contactor? $250! They charged $190 for the contactor alone!

I find it awfully strange that an alternator for a car can be under $100, but a motor on a home air conditioner can cost the owner $3,000. They're not THAT different. What's going on with this A/C racket?

If anybody wants to get rich, come to Las Vegas and do heating and air conditioning! I know it's hot out there, but DAMN! This is ridiculous!
having been a new englander all my life, on visiting pheonix my first thought was it would be a ghost town save for freon's magic

from 10am to 2 pm the streets were as baren in the 108deg heat as it is here in the dead of winter

btw~Furnace's better contactors go for $400 and up for nema size 2, and that's my cost.
I know of an A/C service company that charges $28.00 for a relay "installation kit." It consists of 4 orange wire nuts.
Here are some things a person could buy with the money they would spend on a cheap contactor, which is just a switch, when it comes right down to it:

2 color television sets
3 color computer printers
2 or more cellular phones
2 bicycles
A used motorcycle
1 large boom box
2 or more 2.4 GHz cordless phones
2 pairs of high-end running shoes
1 Greenlee 1000v multi-tester
1 window air conditioner
1/3 of a new computer
1 sewing machine

It's just criminal that anybody can charge $190 for a cheap switch when you can get 1,000 times the technology, convenience and performance for the same price! Somebody is making money hand over fist, and they're really taking advantage of us.

If you question the pricing, they might say something like this:

"We'll get back up there and put it back in if you want." (In 108 degrees, you have no choice.)

"Air conditioner parts cost a lot." (It's a racket.)

"It's a hard job up there on the roof in this heat, and we get all the work we can do. Supply and demand." (It's a racket.)

The U.S. military has a program called Fraud, Waste and Abuse, where they root out suppliers who charge $250 for a nut and $175 for a bolt. Evidently some of the guilty parties moved to greener pastures and took over vast portions of the A/C business, where nobody questions their activities. Maybe some of the mobsters who used to run Las Vegas took over the entire air conditioning industry, from manufacturing the parts to installing them.
In the southwest, heat is simply our version of severe weather.
i know from whence you speak. i have done a lot of work for heating/cooling contractors.

they see nothing unusual about requiring $1000 a day for 2 men. meaning, if they change out a gaspack that costs them, say $800, the customer will probably pay at least $1800 and thats if the contractor isnt out to screw 'em. lol.

the other day my brother in law told me he made $1000 for an hour of his time on such a job after paying temp help.

it seems we have to take a vow of poverty to ply our trade.
sparkflashmaster,

Yes, it was so simple, and the part shouldn't cost that much. Yea man, what a rip-off. You could have done it easy, except you didn't have the part. Sure.

So you say two guys spent a half hour. That was at your place. And they spent some time getting there. So say they spent an hour. That's two man-hours.

Thay had a truck full of parts, right? (Or they would've had to go to a parts store, taking more time). And they had someone to answer the phone when your roomie called for help. And they probably had insurance. Maybe they were licensed. And pay workers comp.

Oh, and at least one of the guys was a trained and experienced HVAC mechanic. A few years of either OJT or apprenticeship.

There was the cost of the part, too. Let's say it was $80 wholesale. That means $110 for overhead, pay & benefits, and profit. For two man-hours.

So you're whining about paying a TOTAL of $55/hr for skilled tradesmen? If we back out 30 percent overhead and profit combined, that's about $38/hr average for the two guys for pay and benefits.

That means about $25/man average in pay. The senior guy gets $38 and the helper $12. Does that seems unreasonable?

Cliff
Explain why the motor costs so much.
Cliff

You sound like a contractor. I like how you explained it, very well done! I used to have a similar line with the customer, but lately I do not believe I need to explain myself. Most people who are not in their own business do not understand the cost of running a business. If you asked them if they would be happy with $30.00 an hour, they would laugh. Exactly my point!!

Pierre
So you think a small contactor is worth $190.00. I think it's overpriced. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

The A/C electric motors are highly overpriced, I just can't justify it in my mind why they are so expensive. I could buy 3 rebuilt Chevy 350 engines for the price of getting a home A/C electric motor changed. Or I could buy a 2000 model Honda CR250 with the same money. Seems like a lot of money for a little electric motor.

No disrespect to the guys who are up there busting their butts on the rooftops, I'm just having a hard time justifying the price of these parts.

You know as well as I that there is profit in the parts, but those parts just aren't worth what they're charging, not even close. $15.00 is about what the contactor looked like it's worth to me, considering the prices of circuit breakers, etc. An A/C motor like the one on my house might be worth $250 in my opinion, based on other products like car alternators, etc.

Amp man, the nature of the A/C business is to repair the units on the customer's roof. They're not really set up to have people put their A/C in their pickup truck and deliver it to the shop.

Also, in the electrical business around here, service guys don't get paid when they're not working on an actual job. If they're sitting around in the parking lot in the company truck for 2 hours waiting for a call, they don't get paid by their boss, the electrical contractor. So the A/C guys probably have to take the same daily risks of having to work 10 hours to get an 8 hour day. They must be making commission.

I'm sure it's always a shock to the customer when they find out the price of an electric motor for residential A/C. Kind of like the sticker shock you get when a lawyer hits you with a $500/hour bill, or when your wife has a baby and they hit you with a $5,000 bill. The prices are way out of whack with many other fields of work.

A/C seems to be much different than commercial electrical - A/C companies seem to charge a lot more for everything.

I know, they all need to be paid and they deserve to experience all the luxury that life has to offer. Some lines of work are just that way - when the customers are all invariably desperate (they need a lawyer, a doctor or an A/C man in the summer), they get bent over a barrel. Maybe the customer doesn't appear to be gouged on labor, but it's all made up on ridiculously overpriced parts.

End result = poor value. Desperate people should not be taken advantage of to such extremes. Maybe it's the manufacturers, maybe it's the distributors, maybe it's the A/C contractors, but somewhere between the manufacturer and the end user, somebody is awfully greedy.
i think i figured something out.

since people off the street are not able to price (or buy) heating and cooling appliances without a license, customers have no idea of the actual cost of them. its not like you can go to home depot to get an idea of prices.

so contractors only have to worry about the next guy's quote and he isnt likely to give out that kind of info either.

now, if lowes and home depot would only quit selling electrical supplies.....hee-hee.
Quote
since people off the street are not able to price (or buy) heating and cooling appliances without a license,

SERIOUSLY???!!

So that means if the blower motor on my window air conditioner goes ka-blooey I can't go to an AC parts shop and buy one? Wow...

Then again....window air conditioners are probably not fixable anymore...

Then again it's a moot point because AC and furnace repair (except for maybe some basic, easily replaceable electrical things that don't involve the freon gas & compressor) are not my specialty.

Still it seems weird that you need a licence to buy .... say a new gas ring for your furnace? [Linked Image]
This is why if your A/C breaks down you just chuck it and buy another. Unless you've got central air, it's just not worth it to get it fixed. Of course, if you do have central air, then you have little choice but to eat the cost.

MacWire
i guess i should have said 'equipment' instead of 'appliances'. i'm sure you can replace a motor on anything they sell at home depot, but if you want to buy a new gas furnace or a central air conditioner, forget it.
I do alot of AC work. That contactor...for a residential unit probably cost the contractor $35.

And anybody can buy A/C parts from many sources such as Johnstone Supply. You only need the license for the refrigerant.

And a $3K motor, never hear fo that. What motor are we talking about, condenser fan motor, blower motor, or compressor? I buy compressor motors for between $200 and $400 usually. I have paid $4K for a big one. I get wholesale prices.

And in my opinion, these guys usually deserve the money they make. They have to understand electricity as well as an electrician (sorry for saying that) because they need to troubleshoot everything from power supply problems, to control circuits, have to be at least half way decent tin knockers, understand some solid state electronics, be excellent plumbers, be riggers when placing or building big installations, and in addition to all this they need to know their own trade very well.

There's alot to know and a good HVAC tech is harder to find than a good electrician. Supply and demand at work.
for several years we have been required to take yearly classwork in order to renew our electrical license here in NC.

last i heard they were thinking about making other trades do the same. go figure.

[This message has been edited by targetshootr (edited 08-13-2003).]
I am in the A/C business. It kinda sounds like you have been "flat rated".
The premise is that you are given a total price for the work + diagnostic charge. The customer is supposed to be happier because of knowing the total up front.

It is rare that the customer comes out better with flat-rate than straight T&M.
Typically it is a way to charge a big price for each individual thing and run the bill up.

Flat rate is being touted as the next great thing for service companies and some are making big bucks doing it.
It remains to be seen whether those companies will survive in the long run.


In fairness though, was this an after hours call?
You had the option of saying no.....and being hot. Or calling some one else.

You did get what you paid for. Cooling.
You just don't like what you paid for it.


[This message has been edited by wolfdog (edited 08-13-2003).]
I'll take a stab at motor cost again. The net ate my reply last night. First, a $3000 unit would likely be big enough to be used in my church's main auditorium air conditioner. I agree, they are pricey but for good reason. First, unless you are dealing with very large systems, you are not dealing with just a motor, you are looking at a complete compressor assembly. That unit is hermetically sealed so servicing it is impractical. It must be designed and built to make it's 15 year service life with exactly ZERO problems - you can do no more service than give the case a smack. No access. It also has to run completely in an environment of freon and oil, got to use the right metals here. Also has to be able to put out a couple of hundred pounds of pressure, that's a lot of compressing. If the truth be known, I am amazed at how cheap air conditioning compressors are for what you get.
As far as prices, with the internet, anybody can check out the cost of systems. 10 minutes with Google and I can have a dozen prices for, say, a 5 ton split system air conditioner.

[This message has been edited by Big Jim (edited 08-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Big Jim (edited 08-14-2003).]
I take a stab at motor cost again. The net ate my reply last night. First, a $3000 unit would like be big enough to be used in my church's main auditorium air conditioner. But, I agree, they are pricey but for good reason. First, unless you are dealing with very large systems, you are not dealing with just a motor, you are looking at a complete compressor assembly. That unit is hermetically sealed so servicing it is impractical. It must be designed and built to make it's 15 year service life with exactly ZERO problems - you can do no more than give the case a smack. No access. It also has to run completely in an environment of freon and oil, got to use the right metals here. Also has to be able to put out a couple of hundred pounds of pressure, that's a lot of compressing. If the truth be known, I am amazed at how cheap air conditioning compressors are for what you get.
As far as prices, with the internet, anybody can check out the cost of systems. 10 minutes with Google and I can have a dozen prices for, say, a 5 ton split system air conditioner.
Hey there Big Jim,

The $3,500 bid and the $3,000 bid were for two different 2nd story condos, about 1,000 square feet, in California, next to a residential street, easy access to the roof, the unit is set on the roof about 20 feet from the edge of the building.

It's interesting that almost all the A/C contractors around there (Glendale, Burbank CA area) seem to be Armenians or Syrians, and they seem to be organized somehow, connected, and holding the rates way up there.
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