Regarding How-To, Need Quick Answer type Threads at ECN:

I'd like to take a few minutes to explain something that hasn't been touched on in a while including some of my beliefs and the intent and policies of this Forum.

1) I firmly believe that many people do not take Electricity or electrical work as seriously as they should.
2) I don't believe that an Internet Forum is the best place for a novice to learn basic electrical installation and safety procedures.

It seems that the longer I am in the Electrical Trade the more variables I can see in any situation. Choosing methods and materials is not always easy and can be especially difficult when the situation is being vaguely described by someone that is probably not aware of all of the factors that would affect the decision. If correct terminology is not used, misused, or not understood by them that can be another major problem when trying to offer correct advice or instructions. All in all, finding a solution or figuring out the correct advice to give can be a tedious procedure at best, and then, possibly prove to be a dangerous choice anyway if the person does not possess the skills or knowledge to perform the installation safely. For these reasons, and more, I don't think that threads of a How-To and 'just need a quick answer' nature are suitable or desirable for our Forum. Threads like this are usually closed or removed with an explanatory email sent to the originator.

It is not my intention for this policy to seem like it is making any judgements or statements about who should, or shouldn't be doing what, etc. as that is a big and controversial issue that I don't want to get into here. The main intention for ECN Forum has always been to be available to, and used by, those in, or somehow related to the Electrical Trade, its' Study, Codes, Instruction, Theory, Inspection or Safety. (I hope that covers everyone here )

To summarize, this Forum was never intended to be a place for untrained people to try to get quick answers or instructions for their project of the moment. There are many other Forums that do cater to those types of questions. Even if the most Excellent advice is given in a thread like this at ECN the post may still be removed so that it does not appear to others that ECN is a place to ask these types of questions. I don't think that the majority of our Members would really take kindly to being inundated by a mass of vague or elementary questions on a daily basis either.

In closing, I'd like to say that I hope that any members here that may have been involved in a discussion like this that was closed or removed can understand (and hopefully agree) with my reasoning and does not take it personally.

Your Comments are welcome,

Bill


[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 03-29-2003).]

Ok, I'm ticked now... ok, only slightly miffed... nah, I'm actually glad I've been welcomed with my mundane question and outsider's perspective on technical and non-technical issues alike.

I would note that in my initial search for clarification of a contracting issue, I understood immediately that the site would most likely be a gathering of electrical CONTRACTORS by the obvious statement of such in the domain name. As such, I wouldn't expect a contractor to be uninformed, untrained, or uninterested in safety or code and I certainly wouldn't think most contractors would spend their off-hours giving away their skill and craft for free as is implied by some of the requests on 'how to avoid paying someone to do this' or if so, it would be an intentional give-away in the hopes of future business but that would be done in person in the form of performing actual work.

These forums have given me valuable insight on dealing with the contractors, the facility managers, the contract managers and the AHJs that I might encounter and the realistic situations that are involved with delivery of a vital service.

[This message has been edited by BuggabooBren (edited 03-29-2003).]

Webmaster (Bill?) I have not been here as long as many people but I have been impressed with the way this site is run.

I have posted to topics that have "disappeared" no big deal, a webmaster has to do what they think is in the best long term interests of the site.

Keep up the good work, I have learned a lot from other members answers and from others questions.

Bob

Webmaster,- is there any way to keep non-electrical type people from registering on this forum?

Bill
First off, its your site so you get to say where and why you want the site to head.
My experience is mostly in relation to Gasoline dispensing. I have a Masters because of the way Maine laws are written in that any and all experience counts towards one hours and I took the required courses and passed the exam first shot. But because my experience has been pigeon holed in one area I lack the knowledge needed to be a "real" master electrician, thats why I'm here. To read about real world stuff that happens in the field. I'm also smart enough to realize when I'm out of my league so I ask for help .

I don't know if you a have a mission statement posted somewhere but maybe that would help folks understand what you want this site to do and who its aimed at. Put it somewhere at the top of the forums so they have to read it before proceeding.

Bill, you are correct in saying that people do not take electrical work as seriously as they should. In our business we see it everyday. My mantra has always been "Hire an electrician". The problem I see is that around the country rules governing electrical contractors vary to the point that there are no rules in some areas. Seeing this, and the fact that some people will work on their homes regardless of knowledge and skill level of the project they want to do (myself included), it may be safer to give some advice that may at least keep someone from getting killed. I suggest directing people to diy sites such as Bob Villa. I have been on there for a while and Joe T is the moderator. I take great discretion in the info I offer and I will stress hiring a pro in many situations.

Bill,
As a retired apprenticeship instructor, I agree 100% with what you said.

My greatest frustration was students who wanted "the answer", so that they could "pass", but were not the least bit interested in "learning".

Ed

Thanks for the clear-up Bill.

You're right, it is risky giving advice over the net for something like this.

The ideal thing would be for someone who wants to "play electrician" ( ) to spring for a copy of the NEC and related how-to books and study them, get catalogs (preferably ones with lots of pictures) and to visit one of those big orange stores and examine the materials and understand how they get put together.

Also, what goes where, and when.

It's not hard to do, but it does take some expenditure of time. But even if you're not planning on doing the work yourself, you know what to watch out for when you're discussing things with the professional you hired, and also so you can notice when some unscrupulous person ripped you off by doing shoddy and dangerous work.

You're able to speak the language, in a way.

I've always been a firm believer in DIY, but you should know your limitations.

For instance I will not work with gas pipe, rip out and rebuild a boiler or do anything electrical that's beyond replacing an existing cable in the wall or a device in a box. I will not tamper with a meter or do hot panel work. I would question any non-electrician who intends to relocate a meter or panel. I would not be comfortable rewiring my aunt's entire apartment for instance because there are issues aplenty with that place, up to and including replacing the existing fuse box!

Swapping a circuit breaker on a deactivated panel with an excact replacement is one thing and soemthing I might be able to do. But what do you do when you run across a Stablock panel or messes like what are frequently shown here where sometimes even complete replacement of the entire fuse box is needed? I guess the answer is obvious!

I frequent this board (and now also Joe's new board) because I don't want to be one of those who are guilty of nailing 16 AWG zipcord on the wall, plugging one end into an existing outlet and hooking up a bakelite surface mount receptacle at the other end and thinking it's a masterpiece of electrical craftsmanship.

Thanks for tolerating me, guys.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 03-29-2003).]

Good Comments so far,

As far as limitimg membership to one group, there is no way to confirm any information in an non-invasive way, and that's not really my intention anyway. I don't know if I can describe my 'philosophy' on this but I will try by example here:

Besides the obvious groups that you would expect to be involved in an Electrical Trade Forum I think there are others that should be welcomed as well. Those interested enough in the trade to ask advice on training, study materials and methods, or pointers on finding applicable code sections and their meanings should be encouraged. People asking for advice on Safety issues - Is this Dangerous? Should I worry about this? - etc. (which in my opinion would not include a person asking how they can fix it themselves). There may be others too, who go to the trouble of putting their nose in the Books and Codes and look more for general direction and explanation rather than asking which wire goes where, and I just bought this, what should I do?

As far as whether it's better for a determined DIY person to get advice on Electrical work or not I honestly don't know and am trying not to make any judgements on that issue. I would just rather that it is not done here. I have to admit to not having a great tolerance for people that just want quick answers to something I've spent a long time learning and I know has no easy answer.

I can be sympathetic to these questions myself sometimes and I have sent many emails, and given advice to them sometimes but that is not something I would want to do here publically. Then, there is the issue of Time and there not being enough of it... And I usually do mention that there are other Forums like BobVilla.com that would be more suitable and receptive to their questions.

I have thought about posting some guidelines that I think should be followed, but don't really know how to explain my goals here.

Clear as Mud?

Bill

Clear as Mud?

Yup !!

I'd like to address one of the different comments here specifically if I can.

Bren,

I think that many here value your 'Outsiders Perspective' and the effort that you make to give us your honest opinions. I do not believe that we are totally unrelated though.

There's a lot of knowledge that goes into doing anything well. The "Pros" in one field can often benefit from the knowledge and experience brought here by others. As Electricians and Contractors I think we can benefit greatly by interaction with people in many different fields on Electrical Theory, Safety, Business matters, Project Management, Accounting, Purchasing, Employee Relations, Insurance, Legal matters and more.

I'd also like to mention that I greatly value the participation of our International Friends here. We can only benefit from the diversity of knowledge and exchange of ideas that goes on here together.

I think that we have a great bunch of people here, and a pretty good mesh going on so far where everyone brings something to the Table.

Bill

Walrus,

I can understand where you're coming from. There are many people that end up in specialized fields and don't get exposed to other areas so much. When I went to trade school there were a few Utility Linemen in the class that admittedly had no real knowledge or experience with the common devices (outlets, switches etc) or 'low voltage' (120/240v) distribution systems in their homes.

... I forgot what else I was going to say on that, ...but anyway, No one here knows everything, if they say they do they are lying ..


Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-29-2003).]

Never forget that the safest thing to do with an electrical system is never turn the switch on. But, after the switch is turned on, we are responsible for a series of judgments and compromises to make electricity usable, but not harm people in the process.

I think most readers here agree that this board should not be considered a place to exchange information on how to just “get by” on a Saturday for two hours. [That is what orange-aproned halfwits try to do. They don’t need our help or encouragement.]

People in general are curious, so they ask questions.
Yes a lot of these people are do it yourselfers, looking for help.
I ask the local auto mechanic questions al the time. Plus the painters, plasters carpenters and the list goes on and on.
I don't like the idea of censorship, and that is what this sounds like.
I think we should answer questions and encourage the use of qualified people as the proper solution.

You do it your way, I'll do mine.
Just the way I see it.

Russ

I think this is an area where it can be a tough call.

Somebody who just asks something like "Please tell me the cheapest quickest way to add my new wall light. I've opened the nearest receptacle box and I see a white wire and a black wire, where do I go from here?" clearly lacks even basic knowledge. In such a case, I think everybody here would be agreed as to the appropriate response ("Call an electrician!") In such cases, it's probably quite reasonable for the post to be removed, with a private e-mail explaining why.

As Bill mentioned though, there are cases where somebody has become concerned about what he sees as a possible safety hazard, and has turned to ECN for guidance. Better to ask in a forum of knowledgable sparkies than to rely upon the advice of the orange-coated "know-it-all" at the big warehouse (yes, we have 'em in this country too!).

In such cases, a reply or two pointing the concerned person in the right direction should not be out of place. Maybe in 90% of cases it will end with "Please call in somebody to check this," but if this has made that person realize that he may well have a potential hazard, then we've done our little bit toward electrical safety.

I do believe in offering advice and explanations, to the degree necessary to get the point across or to confirm/reduce anyone's fears. Getting the technical level of such explanations right and knowing where to draw the line and say "enough" is probably the hardest part.

How about this thread as an example?

(Stew, if you're reading this, I'm not in any way getting at you. I've just chosen your question as a recent example, and your concern over one obvious problem has led you to question something else you've seen. That clearly places your question in the second category.)

Ed,
I agree with you entirely. These days, so many courses seem aimed at teaching how to answer the exam questions rather than on the basis of teaching a thorough knowledge of the subject.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-30-2003).]

Bill,

I agree with everything so far. I have been on many BB's since Joe and I first met on Prodigy. Since then, when ever you have a BB of qualified people who have a skill, there will aways be someone who wants free advice. If the people on this board want to give out free advice, then so be it. If not, then no one should answer their question. I don't feel that you can try to cut them off or maybe you can give them their own section. That way, anyone here who wants to answer them can. This is only a thought since you guys control the board. Anyway you want to handle it is fine by me.

Russ,

I can't agree that trying to limit participation to a certain group or related groups is censorship. I don't want to start debating civil liberties as there is a fine line where one's supposed rights can begin to infringe upon someone elses'.

I ask you to look at it like this. Suppose you are planning a Party, .. no, let's say a Wedding. The purpose is to get a select group of people together for a specific purpose. You are making all of the arrangements and footing the bill. Wouldn't you expect to have some say over the guest list, and the menu? I don't think the situation here is very much different.

Bill

Harold,

I could easily make another Forum here where anybody could get Electrical advice. I could probably sell a lot of stuff to them and maybe even get some paid Advertising there. I just don't want to do it.

This Forum is meant to be a place that primarily benefits those in the Electrical Trade and related persons. I would like to make this place as useful and comfortable to them as possible. I don't think that running a How-To clinic here would really be the best thing to do.

On another note, I try very hard to ensure that Flamewars don't start between Members here. I'd rather have you Guys (and Girls) mad at me for closing or deleting something than be mad at each other. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to protect the DIYer from Flaming too. I'm sure that everyone has seen that happen, and it's not pretty.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-31-2003).]

Bill, I know it's your party, so what you say goes, and for the most part I agree. How about putting a bold notice on the main page, making sure that the users know this forum is not a DIY forum? Maybe have a few links to a few of the more popular DIY forums would help direct those who are not professionals to a DIY forum. Let me know, I can give you a few links to ones I participate in.

Rick Miell

There is often a root characteristic on many initial and reply posts here, and that’s having a working knowledge of materials and tasks that are based on electrical-code understanding. If a reader does not have some background, then any “How-To, Need Quick Answer…” posts will not be that, for considerable time may be spent getting “up to speed.”

If you read usenet electrical subjects, you know what I mean. A lot of time is spent on very basic material, and it may serve a purpose there, but I would guess that most readers here don’t want to be bogged down with elementary explanations, and anticipate finding advanced information {more suitable to a tradesperson’s needs} exchanged at E-C.net.

Another consideration is that advertisers and sponsors on this board invest with the expectation of appealing to current and likely prospective users of their wares.

Bjarney,

Thanks for your comments. Actually we don't have any Sponsors or Advertisers to worry about though. I never really looked into that stuff. The products you see advertised here in the Store we are selling ourselves. I try not to hawk them too much, but that's what helps pay the bills here.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-31-2003).]

Actually, I still really appreciate being included in this bunch. I'll try not to make my questions show how much I still don't know.
The way I was put together, and what my dad taught me from the time that I was pretty little, I find the actual how-to easy to figure out. You guys are teaching me the safe and right ways to get it done.


Thanks

TW