Question for anyone especially Illinois people. Why do the IL codes seem to have an aversion (is that a real word?) to plastic. By this I mean no romex, no pvc drain piping, etc. I wonder what the real deal is behind this. I can not even for a minute beleive this is a safety issue as these systems are in use all over the country without problems. Anybody know the scoop?

PVC.......

Very hazardous to humans. Read all about it here.
http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/toxics/house.htm

It is probibly a good idea to outlaw it.

Dave

I asked this same basic question on another forum and got the answer I expected, this is a result of strong labor lobbying.

More time = More jobs
Bob

From what I've seen, most of the legal/political resistance to adding to the amount of toxic combustion products has come from the fire marshals. Unfortunately they eventually lose out to commercial interests. Sure, there are those who hate to see the old way give way for the faster and cheaper, but they have just been the cheerleaders for the firefighters in this issue.

From what I understand, some city regualtors are still wary of the repurcussions of some lady's cow kicking over a lamp.

Iwire has it right.........strong labor unions.

GJ

It is funny how different the code is place to place. Here in MA they amended the 2002 NEC so I can still run NM in suspended ceilings in other then residences, this leads to NM being used in concrete and steel buildings like a 80,000 sq ft super markets. It looks poor and IMHO does not belong there.

But now I have learned if I was to build a house around Chicago it would be an EMT (MC & AC just for fishing I am told) job in a wood building, this seems like overkill to me, all the complaints about how AFCIs add to the cost of a house I have heard here, pale in comparison of the added cost to do a house in EMT.

The smoke produced by the amount of all the NM in a house would probably be less then the smoke produced by just the couch, and the NM would be behind sheetrock and spread out, I think the safety argument here is a con to make more work, Just my opinion I have not been there but I figure fire is the same everywhere
Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-23-2003).]

Apparently it's been determined that it wasn't a cow that kicked over the lamp that caused the Chicago fire. It was some kids playing around with the lamp that started the fire....they just blamed the poor cow.

I'm really no fan of PVC. You can't bend it easily...and I've seen lots of shattered pipe during my strolls past jobsites.

In New York, it's commonly used as conduit for underground telephone wires though...so it has to be strong enough, considering the amount of weight that's placed above them (dirt, paving, trucks, cars, etc).

However I think most in-house potable water piping is still done mostly in copper...at least the examples I've seen.

WARNING - Changing locality -

In Colombia, PVC pipe is common in new construction for in-house potable water pipe. Cheaper than copper equivalent...that's for sure.

Electrical conduit placed IN WALL is common there also. A lot of single-family houses are solid masonry throughout - brick, block and mortar. Ditto two and three family houses.

PVC conduit and plastic boxes are also popular for these applications.

The RFP for a new building for the Colombian Army called for Romex sheathed in PVC conduit that would be placed inside the masonry walls of the building. It was posted on the Colombian government's website.

iwire,

I am an inspector here in NJ and one of the jobs that I am inspecting is a 5 story senior citzen housing project. The electrical contractor (EC) is from Boston, MA and he was saying that in MA he would be allowed under the NEC amendments to run MN wire in this building. As long as he didn't leave the floor. That would not be the case here in NJ, he has to run MC through out the whole building. ( I am not for or against this rule.) I was just wondering about it.

2002 MEC 334.12(1). Revise to read as follows.

In the typical apartment building this means NM in the units and AC for the public or common spaces.
Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-23-2003).]

Reply from an Illinois person...

Yes, Classic is partially right. Some people are still a little jumpy that our city burned down and our citizens had to swim out into Lake Michigan to escape the flames. However, a greater reason for our strict building codes is related to a fire that happened in an elementary school in 1958. (see: http//www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/ourladyfire.html)

A short excerpt of this article reads: "As a result of the tragedy, ordinances to strengthen Chicago's fire code and new amendments to the State fire code were passed. Also, the National Fire Protection Association estimated that hundreds of schools across the nation were safer because, according to a NFPA survey, about 68% of all U.S. communities inaugurated and completed fire safety projects after the Our Lady of the Angels holocaust".

As a life long Chicago Sparkey, when I read the posts in this forum, I often wonder how the rest of the country can have so much faith in plastic??? I guess it's just a matter of perspective. JMHO

From the above discussion, I take it that low smoke PVC-free plastic cables haven't caught on in the US?

I work in Chicago and suburbs and almost everywhere conduit (EMT) is required. After training, EMT wiring is so easy that pepople do not like "Romex", "BX" etc. especialy where a lot of 3-ways, 4-ways, kitchen appliances circuits etc, can fill the pipe with 10 or more wires. Cabling enables future changes and correction.
One my old time contract to wire far suburb (prairie) house with "Romex" was performance and financial catastrophy.
Andre

From Northern Illinois:

If you get too far from Chicago they still use Romex and BX to do homes. New home buyers don't know the difference between pipe or romex and the prices don't seem cheaper. It is just more profit for the builder.

BX is not aloud around in many Chicago suburbs. We have gone to homes with things added on to change it out for greenfield. Don't ask me what the big difference is.

When we go to a job and find some romex, BX, or PVC around here it was always done poorly, wrong, or unsafe in many ways and was done by a home owner or handy man. Someone will say "look at all this romex in the atic" and laugh. Sometimes I will be at the supply house and a few guys will come in the speak almost no English and for some kind of wire cable they can hook up a hot tub or Jacuzzi with. They don't know what size. Then they ask for a non GFI breaker in whatever size.

Romex or BX is not aloud here but at the home supply stores they have a whole isle of it.

I know many electricians that love to pipe and take pride in what they done. I seen some great bending to make things fit in and around some tight spaces that the apprentices say are imposable. The piping shows the skill level and or the quality level.

Faster than PVC? I have never worked much with PVC pipe. I cant think of any advantages except in cases to avoid corrosion and maybe price? I would think I could bend a stick put a 90, make an offset in or what ever to make it fit perfect and screw it together faster than someone could get out the glue and piece some generic fitting pieces in place.

EMT is a ground. No extra wires to pull or splice. No bare romex wires in boxes or panels.

EMT makes changes possible like added circuits and switched outlets. Adding lights and fans is better when you can pull thru some existing pipe to the switch.

With metal boxes and mud rings we can cut out a 1 gang ring to a 2 gang ring for adding switches with out patching drywall. I don’t know what you can do with those plastic boxes.

The wires are much more protected in pipe.

You can choose your color wires to use. No relabeling neutrals. We can look in a box and tell by the wire color if it is a switch leg, traveler, hot, or nut. We can keep neutrals separate by using one white and gray combinations with the hots.

Some of the towns have taken it another step. Low voltage in pipe. We run ½” stubs to the attic or basements for doorbells, cable, and phone most of the time and then some 3/4 chases to the basement. I know at least one city asks for anything over 50V including phone to be completely piped (we got away with just stubbing it). I have done it complete in pipe to boxes in Chicago but I don't know if it was a city requirement.

Services are always and underground is sometimes ridged here

I have seen in old work if the wires were over fused and over loaded. The wires would burn thru and maybe everything in the box is burnt but the home is still there. On the news this time of year it seems like most of the deadly Chicago fires in homes are said to be caused by space heaters.

.I don't know how long it takes with romex (I never built a home with it) but we can pipe a middle of the road 4000 sf home in around 6 days and about a day pulling with 2 guys. I don't know what the price difference is between pipe and romex.

Right about now we could use some work piping EMT in Chicagoland.

Tom