I have a good question. If a person wants to replace their old fuse panel-with a breaker panel. Do you have to run new wire? How about the service feed? I need answers, because I'm curious. I haven't ran across an old panel in many many years, so my clarification of its looks are "none".

Well, I've done a lot of west coast service changes, and a lot of the old services were only 60 Amp services. I usually installed 125 Amp breaker panels, a new riser, meter base and SE conductors, and new ground system. Usually some of the branch circuits would have to be j-boxed, in order to accomodate the new breaker panel. Old wire doesn't stretch very good. Nice one day job! Love to do service changes!

I'd only consider replacing the entire service since if the fuse box needs upgrading then the rest of the system should follow suit.

i done alot of upgrading from old 60 amps box to modren 100 or 150 amps boxes it is very typically i do is put new meter socket new oh or ug wires setup and i make a thru inspection of exsting wires to make sure they can usebale with meet the codes and it is very common for me to rewire the kitchen and bathroom wires ( those wire are the first to go !!!!) due all the hevey load on the line some case i see old box with 30 amp with multi 14 ga wires that is very spooky that why i check it very carefull to make sure there is no burn or overload telltale signs and replace other items as need. genreally a full day some case 2 depend on how much mess it is involved

merci marc

Frenchelectrican, your comments about inspecting the old wiring brings to mind a common problem with service changes. After years of oversized fusing (using 30 amp fuses for #14 wire), after the service change is done the customer invariably overloads some circuits. I guess it would be good to inspect, and advise the customer about upgrading the circuitry first, so that the customer can know better about what the project will actually entail.

We did service changes on 12, 5 story 30 unit apartment buildings right near Fenway Park. We were contracted to put in the new service and that was it, each unit had 1 #14 "riser" from the basement when we got there each units riser had a 30 amp glass Edison base fuse, when we would leave they would have a single pole 15 amp breaker. Right away these were tripping, to no surprise the floor was littered with blown 30 amp fuses.

I do not know what happened when we were gone because we got our inspection and moved on.

So for the residents it would be hair dryer or coffee maker but not both!
Bob

Marc brings up a good point.A lot of times the branch ckts are in worse shape than the service,and should be looked at closely.Russell

iwire - you forgot to mention that the 14ga was cloth covered (at least where I used to live in Brighton). 5V drop when I turned on the toaster, and I kept worrying that someone would want toast and coffee at the same time one morning...

I wire, I have been down that road before. MANY buildings in the Boston area with that setup. One of my first jobs as a helper was in a 60+ unit building in Somerville. New service, new 60 amp panels to each apt, and new a/c and kitchen outlets all while still occupied. Quite a job. Foca Se, do you mean the feeder to the panel or the branch wiring in the house?

I did this work around 1985 I can not remember for sure but I think it was K&T


Electricmanscott,
I wish we had put 60amp single phase risers in, The 800 amp 31 meter bank looked kind of strange with 30 Single pole 15s for the units and one 2 pole 100 for Public panel

Of course my 2 sets of 600kcmil feeders terminated to a #6 lead covererd underground cable assembly that Boston Edison said if it fails we will worry about it then.
Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-22-2003).]

Elzappr:

When my 200 amp service was installed, the electrician extended the old conductors via twist-on connectors inside the CB panel.

You mentioned using j-boxes. How many cables do you bring into a single j-box? (I mean, can you use one j-box for more than one circuit since you are splicing and not connecting devices?)

Does the NEC permit splicing inside of the breaker panel for existing circuits?

How many cables in a box is dependent on box cubic inches and conductor size.

Yes you can make splices in Panels.

iwire:

To clarify, with the box-fill limits in mind, is it OK to have separate branch cicuit wiring in the same j-box, as the box is being used for splicing only? I would guess that the grounds should all be connected together?

Yes you can have 1 or more circuits in the same JB this happens a lot Yes all grounds together and to box also, keep neutrals seperate.

A typical 4" x 1 1/4" square can handle with out a device, 8 #12 conductors, all the grounds count as 1 so 3 12/2 RX is all that can fit (3 Hots + 3 Neutrals + 1 ground = 7). Devices, Clamps and fixture studs all take away from this.

All we use is 4" x 2 1/8" square box this box can handle 13 #12s = to 6 12/2s

OK, thanks.

I recall the discussion about neutrals from separate branch circuits

As to new service feed -- doesn't the POCO make an inspection before any upgrade to determine if the feed can handle it?

Do the words "if it ain't broke don't fix it" answer that.

I worked in the Boston, Charlestown Brookline area during the eighties and did a lot of services 400 to 1000 amp and I can not think of many times the power company changed their feeder. Obviously these services must not draw what they are rated at, but if it was a full remodel we would usually change the heating to electric baseboard so the load went up.

Things may be different now.
Bob

I am going to put in a new service at my house when the weather breaks going from 100amp to 200amp and sort out some of the ckts more, The wiring is ok i have been all over the attic this week since i am putting in a new bathroom and had to run all new wiring, but i do have alot of splices that are either in a box or not and most box don't have covers. When the weather breaks this will all change. Hell my tv shut off the other day and i found out that a receptacle in the living room is all so on the same line as the washer. that has since been changed since the washer is now in the bathroom. I have alot of stuff were they just spliced off of what ever was closest to them at the time over the years and iam going to change all that.

Still confused! The wires that are presently in the old fuse panel. Can we run them to breakers, or do we have to splice each wire, then run them?

If the wires are long enough and the insulation is in good condition, connect them to the breakers/busses.

foca se: yes you can connect the wire to new breaker box. genreally new breaker box are larger than old fuse box and make sure the wire are good shape when connect to new breaker box. make sure have proper size breaker to accoring to wire size 14 ga = 15 amps breaker 12 ga wires = 20 amp or can use 15 if long run(length of wire) and make sure use the nec and local codes and keep it very neat and mark all the wires down so make it easier to indefity it later date if still confused or have more question just post it here we will try to steer you straght

merci marc

There are times when it is convenient to just use the old fuse box as a j-box. You just have to run a sheet metal screw into the hinged cover...this keeps little people out of the j-box.